Used Model S batteries being derated?

[BPeter]

I was looking at the used Model S inventory and noticed quite a few of them have their batteries derated. 75/75D being labeled as 60/60D. Previously they were doing the opposite, just unlocking the batteries on the 60/60D cars but leaving the 60 badging on there.

But now they seem to be doing the opposite for some reason. About half the facelift 60/60Ds listed are actually 75/75D, although there are still 75 and 75D listed. I wonder if this is related to the increased degredation issue? Maybe they are just derating these because they think they will have the battery issue and by selling them derated they won't have to deal with warranty/lawsuit about it?

Example cars
2016 Model S | Tesla
2016 Model S | Tesla
2016 Model S | Tesla

Here is one that was unlocked from 70 to 75
2017 Model S | Tesla

 

[NoMoGas]

Hmmmm... did they even make a 60D? Too bad the vin doesnt indicate battery

 

[BPeter]

You can look at the pictures, they have 75/75D badges and the screens show 75/75D. They were definitely 75 packs but have been limited.

Not sure if they ever sold a 60D but I did see some cars with a 60D badge so I assume they did at some point.

 

[NoMoGas]

You can look at the pictures, they have 75/75D badges and the screens show 75/75D. They were definitely 75 packs but have been limited.

Not sure if they ever sold a 60D but I did see some cars with a 60D badge so I assume they did at some point.

This is quite interesting. You should point blank ask them. Maybe it's a typo but I'm with you, looks deliberate. If it's deliberate that's very curious. I wonder if they are limiting the battery but if that's the case they should reset the graphic. But OMG how sneaky would that be? Software limit 75's to 60's and then get new buyers to pay for the "upgrade" to what someone else already paid for. SPECULATION for sure but... any other ideas?

 

[BPeter]

This is quite interesting. You should point blank ask them. Maybe it's a typo but I'm with you, looks deliberate. If it's deliberate that's very curious. I wonder if they are limiting the battery but if that's the case they should reset the graphic. But OMG how sneaky would that be? Software limit 75's to 60's and then get new buyers to pay for the "upgrade" to what someone else already paid for. SPECULATION for sure but... any other ideas?

One idea is they want to move the used inventory and lowering the price helps. By software limiting the batteries to a configuration they've previously used they can move the cars at 60/60D prices without hurting the value of 75/75D cars. If they actually deliver the cars as 60/60D the software on the screen will be updated to show that but they may also just deliver them unchanged as 75/75D, Tesla often forgets/doesn't care to apply downgrades to cars.

Another thing I noticed is P85D/P85DL were being listed as 85D and priced like so. There isn't even a P85D trim filter currently. AFAIK they've never sold PD cars limited to non-P so whoever buys those may get a nice discount off a P85D!

 

[ucmndd]

One idea is they want to move the used inventory and lowering the price helps. By software limiting the batteries to a configuration they've previously used they can move the cars at 60/60D prices without hurting the value of 75/75D cars.

This is plausible.

My actual guess is all of those cars started life as 60s and exist in Tesla’s inventory that way, but were upgraded to 75s after delivery by the prior owner (Tesla would update the car’s badging after the upgrade on request). Tesla’s inventory management system that automates the listing of the cars isn’t catching the after-the-fact upgrade so the listing is inconsistent, but I bet if you bought one of these cars it would actually be delivered as a 75.

They definitely sold 60Ds.

The only odd one is the 2017 70 -> 75... no 70 cars were produced in 2017 at all.

 

[NoMoGas]

One idea is they want to move the used inventory and lowering the price helps. By software limiting the batteries to a configuration they've previously used they can move the cars at 60/60D prices without hurting the value of 75/75D cars. If they actually deliver the cars as 60/60D the software on the screen will be updated to show that but they may also just deliver them unchanged as 75/75D, Tesla often forgets/doesn't care to apply downgrades to cars.

Another thing I noticed is P85D/P85DL were being listed as 85D and priced like so. There isn't even a P85D trim filter currently. AFAIK they've never sold PD cars limited to non-P so whoever buys those may get a nice discount off a P85D!

That makes sense :/

 

[ucmndd]

The software locked batteries degrade the same way regular ones do (ie their available range is proportional to whatever the battery is currently providing in its unlocked state) so I don’t think it’s an attempt to mask degradation.

 

[BPeter]

Another

The software locked batteries degrade the same way regular ones do (ie their available range is proportional to whatever the battery is currently providing in its unlocked state) so I don’t think it’s an attempt to mask degradation.

Sure, but the "fix" for the fire safety issue that has reduced people's range is to simply lower the max charge voltage, which is exactly how the software limited 60 battery is made. If during testing they found these batteries had the safety issue, rebranding them as 60s avoids it.

The weird thing is most of them Model S 75s are being listed as 60s but there's tons of Model X 75s listed.

 

[Chaserr]

They did sell some 2016 60D cars. These were sought after when uncorking was going on because owners could unlock to 75kwh and uncork to P85 acceleration for 60 prices.

These 75D badged cars software-derated to 60 range is probably related to Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software - Tesla has been derating customer cars for months without explanation.

 

[ucmndd]

Sure, but the "fix" for the fire safety issue that has reduced people's range is to simply lower the max charge voltage, which is exactly how the software limited 60 battery is made.

Not quite exactly, but I understand what you’re saying. My direct observation of the way the software locked batteries limit range is a rather simple algorithm based on a fixed percentage of available SoC, i.e. “100%” on a software locked 60 is 86% of whatever 100% is on the actual 75 battery. So if the BMS gimped the max voltage on the actual battery, the 60’s range would reflect a proportion of it.

Not saying they couldn’t change it, but...

I also admit I haven’t read the full 250 pages of the batterygate thread, but my understanding was there are few if any confirmed reports of affected 75s?

 

[BPeter]

Not quite exactly, but I understand what you’re saying. My direct observation of the way the software locked batteries limit range is a rather simple algorithm based on a fixed percentage of available SoC, i.e. “100%” on a software locked 60 is 86% of whatever 100% is on the actual 75 battery. So if the BMS gimped the max voltage on the actual battery, the 60’s range would reflect a proportion of it.

Not saying they couldn’t change it, but...

I also admit I haven’t read the full 250 pages of the batterygate thread, but my understanding was there are few if any confirmed reports of affected 75s?

From my understanding in that thread is they are limiting the batteries max voltage to around 4.08V instead of 4.2V. A software-locked 60kWh battery would be less than 4.08V at 100% charge already so it wouldn't be affected by batterygate.

I don't know if any 75kWh batteries have been affected by the issue and if any have been it's not widespread. But we don't have full information, maybe the risk still exists and it's just significantly smaller so they haven't limited customer cars (yet?) but they'd rather just avoid it altogether when they can.

I think 70kWh software locked 85kWh was a configuration at one point and there don't seem to be any of those so that hurts my theory.

 

[Chaserr]

Not quite exactly

Yes 100% exactly! Measure battery charge volts on a limited 60, this is how Tesla has always done it ever since the S40. The only difference is they show the battery bar's faked 100% so owners are encouraged to buy the unlock on factory-locked cars, but are not on post-sale battery locked cars like ours.

I'm curious to see if the 100% bar is drawn at what looks like a real "100%" farthest right on these derated cars - if anyone has physical access check and see if it lets you set 100% at the most right side or has a visible cap like they used to before they started limiting customer packs secretly.

"86%" isn't known by the battery - batteries just know volts. They show 100% at 4.2v and recalculate lesser percents at lower voltages. They can be told to reset 100% to less than the real 4.2v and that's what Tesla always does on capped packs.

 

[ucmndd]

I think 70kWh software locked 85kWh was a configuration at one point and there don't seem to be any of those so that hurts my theory.

70s were never locked 85s. They are the 14 module version of the 16 module 85 pack.

For a very brief period the 70 was actually a locked 75, before Tesla announced that pack.

 

[Chaserr]

He's thinking of the 85s software locked to 75. There weren't too many of those made, I don't think.

 

[ucmndd]

He's thinking of the 85s software locked to 75. There weren't too many of those made, I don't think.

Ah yes the BTX8. Just a handful it seems, all overseas cars. I don’t think Tesla has ever acknowledged they even exist.

 

[BPeter]

He's thinking of the 85s software locked to 75. There weren't too many of those made, I don't think.

Yeah that's what I was thinking of

 

[⚡️ELECTROMAN⚡️]

Interesting. I just logged into my Tesla account and there is no longer a $2000 option to unlock my battery. The plot thickens.

 

[jaitch]

Those advertised ones have gone. I wonder if it was a mistake or are there others now?

 

[BPeter]

Those advertised ones have gone. I wonder if it was a mistake or are there others now?

Which ones? All three 75->60 are still listed, but the 70->75 is gone