Used Model S VS new Model Y and phantom braking

[TSTitans]

Hi all,
A bit if backgroudnd: we've been looking for a 7 seat EV with a budget that can get a new Model Y or a 2017ish Model S with Jump Seats added and an extended warranty. It's mostly a mid life fun car for me, but needs to support driving 6 kids in a carpool each morning, including a couple small elementary school kids who probably won't grow out of the jump seats for 5 more years. In most ways, either car will work for us, and we were previously pushed to MY by this forums users given the newer tech, battery, warranty, and (slightly) roomier 3rd row setup. I have a deposit on a MY due at the end of the year (got delayed from July delivery to Dec, which means I'll need to figure something else out, like buying a temp older SUV or van for 5 months or so...)

Anyway, in the meantime, I've been continuing researching and also keeping an eye out for MS options, and have so many questions and which way I want to go changes weekly... One big issue is the apparently recent problems with phantom braking on the MY, and I'm wondering whether the MS suffers as much from this. Anecdotally and the Nhtsa complaints seem to focus on the M3 and MY, and technically it makes sense since nowadays those
don't have the radar anymore, only cameras. I've become more and more nervous about the phantom braking, and best I can find suggests that it affects MY at all times with any autopilot/safety options enabled, but the MS seems to only have this with FSD enabled...I can't seem to find firm info in how common or severe it is on either car with a technical explanation...

I prefer the MS for performance and the more traditional interior/UI, but like the utility and likely longer lasting MY since it would be new. I think it all comes down to how big of an issue the phantom braking is...

I'd love to hear from you guys if you've experienced this on either vehicle, and whether with this (or any other considerations you feel are important), you'd go one way or the other... What would you do in my shoes?

 

[popgodazipa]

The only time you will experience phantom braking is in autopilot or FSD, which means it’s an issue in all Tesla’s. So now you just have to decide if you want your kids to face backwards or forward . If it were me…with 6, I might add a used X in that list. Not saying it’s a better option but I don’t see why to exclude it.

If it is a choice of the Y 7 seater vs used S 2017ish, I’m going with the new Y. Full warranty, front facing seats, newer tech.

 

[fetar30310]

Do not buy a pre-Raven (2019) S.

The Ravens are already missing out on a lot of features from the 3/Y, and the pre-Ravens are missing out on more than even the Ravens.

If your budget allows for a 2017 S or a new Y, I'd pick the Y.

The S (Raven or not) still has some phantom braking. But the new Y has it worse. Why? Tesla Vision sucks. Earlier 3/Ys had radars (like the S) that had lower rates of phantom braking - but not zero.

 

[bmah]

One series of Teslas that never had widespread problems with phantom braking is the AP1 Model S/X, manufactured between (roughly) late-2014 through late-2016. True, their autopilot capabilities are relatively limited, and they miss out on many advances made since then. But AP1 in my opinion actually does better than the current AP3 for just driving down the freeway (I have current, personal experience with both).

Bruce.

 

[DayTrippin]

I'd say the new Y is your best option. I had the 7 seater and PB was a real and terrible issue for me. I have a '22 S and not a single issue in almost 5k miles. Mine is one of the last '22's to have radar however. My Y was the first batch to lose it. I lost count of PB events on my Y. It really was horrendous. The current owner has better luck. My '22 Model 3 has had very few. In one 50 mile stretch of road on the Y, I had more PB events than I've had in 5k miles on the 3. Go figure as both don't have radar.

I have to say it, and just my opinion, the Y is my least favorite of the current Teslas. It is pretty expensive for what you get. Not really fun to drive. Yes, it is pretty quick compared to ICE cars, but when I sold mine, I never missed it for a day. It was great for utility but I'll take my 3 or S over the Y any day. I wish they still made a 7 seat version of the S but I doubt they ever will again since they have the X and make more money on it.

FYI - I fit real adults in the back seats of my Y for about an hour one way to dinner and then a return. My friends thought it would worse than it was but they survived. On a scale of 1 to 10 they figured it would be about a 2 or 3 for comfort but gave it a 6 or 7 and when I offered to move the kids to the 3rd row so they could sit in the 2nd, they didn't take me up on the offer.

Pro tip - if you have kids in the 3rd row of the Y, open the hatch and helicopter them in. Great fun for them and much easier to get them buckled in the seat or car seat. No rear air flow so keep in mind on hot/cold days.

The 19" Y wheels are the best option for winter tire choices, efficiency and less of a curb magnet.

Lack of ventilated/cooled seats mean you are going to sweat on hot days. I hated every day in the summer in my Y (lived in Florida) and dislike riding in my 3 when really hot because of that as well.

 

[mswlogo]

I had 2018 M3, Raven X and 22 Model S (vision only).

M3 was the worst PB (which had radar). X was upgraded to FSD Beta (which switched to Vision only) and saw no change in PB. No change switching to 22 Model S (vision only).

I always believed it’s the cameras that falsely detect something whether you have radar or not. I find Phantom braking a minor annoyance now. It’s much better and my muscle memory instantly responds to it now (hit the throttle).

Folks freak out when the car phantom breaks and I did initially as well.

Best car for OP is an X.

 

[TSTitans]

Thanks everyone for the responses... It's so strange how the different cars behave so differently when it comes to phantom braking... I'm really losing excitement for the car with this issue on the mind. Is there any indication or expectation that a FW update might fix it, or is it just a complete unknown that might be fundamental to the hardware?

I haven't considered an X much because they seem to be much mor expensive, but maybe I need to revisit that topic...

 

[fetar30310]

Thanks everyone for the responses... It's so strange how the different cars behave so differently when it comes to phantom braking... I'm really losing excitement for the car with this issue on the mind. Is there any indication or expectation that a FW update might fix it, or is it just a complete unknown that might be fundamental to the hardware?

I haven't considered an X much because they seem to be much mor expensive, but maybe I need to revisit that topic...

In theory, it'll be "fixed" once Tesla releases more complete Tesla Vision software. What's out right now is half baked and likely a result of them having to remove the radar sooner than anticipated (if it was originally in the plans at all...) because of supply chain shortages.

That software is part of the FSD software, though obviously not the full autosteering function.

FYI an X will also have these issues.

All new Teslas are Vision-based without radars. Earlier 3s and Ys had radars, as did all pre-refresh (and some early refresh) S/X. The radar cars don't have as many problems with the braking, but there definitely are still some.

 

[JimmyB]

Just to echo what's already been said: phantom braking was much less of an issue on my AP1 85D than it is on my FSD LR+. But it's not a huge issue either way; it's relatively rare, and you get used to it pretty easily. Which is not to excuse it at all; it shouldn't happen, and the fact that it does is not really OK. I don't regret buying the Raven at all, I love all the incremental improvements over the earlier car. But for 90% of my usage, AP1 was fine and in some cases better.

@TSTitans, there's a whole bunch of other questions you should consider before jumping either way. What sort of range do you need on a daily basis? Will you be road-tripping the car and, if so, is supercharging speed important to you? Or free supercharging? How much stuff will the six kids be bringing with them? Packpacks, sports kit etc can all take up a lot of room. Do you want 'pretty quick' acceleration or 'stupid quick'? What's your handling / comfort preference? Do you want the very latest tech, or is being a generation or two behind OK with you? What's your tolerance for repairs?

Given what we know of your requirements I'd be tempted to find an AP1 Model X, and get an X-Care warranty and / or a WK057 battery plan. You might even get FUSC if that's important. And the kids would love it.

Whichever way you go, happy hunting!

 

[PoBear]

Gotta say, after reading all this, I'm loving my early 2016 S. Zero phantom braking incidents in 20k+ miles. Also good to know that early 2022 S's have radar as that'll be my target for my next purchase. That should align with my target of upgrading 2-3 years from now. Should get a good deal by then. For now, I'm super happy with my 2016!

 

[bmah]

Ah one thing I forgot to make clear in my post was that phantom braking can only occur when you're using TACC or Autopilot. It doesn't happen at all (as far as I know) if you're driving manually. I think it's important to not fixate on this one aspect of the car.

Bruce.

 

[brico84]

I never have phantom breaking in my 2017 S. We have a 2022 Y and 2017 S. It is true the Y has newer tech as mentioned above, but for me, I would not be happy in the Y. I prefer my S with 2 screens, ventilated seats, Sedan vs SUV. Materials feel more premium. I have a sunroof which is awesome. Air Suspension is way more comfortable on our S then the Y suspension.

From what I can tell the only 2 features I don't have in the S that are in the Y is Blind Spot Camera, and live sentry mode features. I don't use those much on the Y anyway.

The cars are very different, you should go with what you prefer driving.

 

[cleverscreenam]

Don't forget that Pre-AP cars (2012-2014) have only regular cruise control, so of course no phantom braking possible
I'll never get rid of mine! But you'll want wk057's battery warranty program.

Unlike all other car manufacturers, Tesla doesn't allow regular cruise control if your car is equipped with autopilot, which is a standard feature since 2015.

Model S has virtually non-existent airflow to the 3rd row seats, you'll likely need to add additional fans for heating/cooling, unless your 3rd row occupants are short duration or you have very mild climate. Tint is also a huge help.

 

[PoBear]

Ah one thing I forgot to make clear in my post was that phantom braking can only occur when you're using TACC or Autopilot. It doesn't happen at all (as far as I know) if you're driving manually. I think it's important to not fixate on this one aspect of the car.

Bruce.

Good clarification. And while I say 20k miles, it's probably closer to 1/3 or 1/2 of that on TACC or AP. I have AP1 and radar.

 

[brico84]

Model S has virtually non-existent airflow to the 3rd row seats, you'll likely need to add additional fans for heating/cooling, unless your 3rd row occupants are short duration or you have very mild climate. Tint is also a huge help.

Neither does the Model Y... unless they ADD A/C if you do 7 seater?

On our 5 seater Model Y there is zero A/C behind the 2nd row.