Used P85D or new 70D?

[stan23]

On a tesla, the battery and motor is pretty solid. But it's all the little things that go wrong and with 1 year left on the bumper to bumper warranty I would be concerned. Again, you cannot renew the warranty if you buy from a used car lot. That's why 3rd party used car dealers sell them so cheap.

 

[HankLloydRight]

Just fyi, a common failure after a few years is the MCU, and that's 3500 right there.

Do you have any real data to back this up? I've never heard of the MCU being a "common failure" item.

 

[stan23]

Do you have any real data to back this up? I've never heard of the MCU being a "common failure" item.

Just what I've read here and the tesla owners forum. Let's just say they seem to happen enough for me to consider it a failure point at some point.

Here are a few threads just in the past 2 years.

Partial MCU screen failure | Tesla
MCU replaced in My 2013 Tesla Model S85 | Tesla
Centre screen failure | Tesla
https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/touch-screen-bubbles-leakage
Gel Leaking from Touchscreen | Tesla
Touchscreen fails in hot (well, actually just pretty warm) weather | Tesla

MCU fails for the second time
MCU unresponsive after parking in the heat
Center Touchscreen: Blank Screen of Death
Center Screen Failure
Death of a center screen / touch screen after warranty
bubbles on touchscreen
Touchscreen: Mositure/Leak?

 

[stan23]

If you're really into performance, be aware that P85Ds with a build date before May, 2015 likely have the Performance Plus suspension from the P85+. This is a firmer sport sedan suspension most like a BMW M5. All other Tesla models have a mush-mobile suspension.

See this thread for details: Performance Plus (+) Upgrade




Just the battery and motor.

Not sure how much time you've spent on an M5, but I personally owned an E60, and have considerable experience with the E39, and F10. I have also spent a lot of time on a + suspension P85D.

I don't consider any Tesla like any of the M5s. You just can't argue physics. The Tesla weighs a lot more, and you can feel it. You just can't make the Tesla as nimble feeling. Also, not sure if you have driven any of the newest coil cars, but I find my '17 S75 with staggered Super sports pretty taut and not floaty. It's obviously not a nimble car by any means (and not even the P85D+ I drove was either)

One thing I want to note, is that there is a considerable difference in feel with the old cars (pre 2015) and the new ones. You have to really drive both back to back. The old cars feel very, and i'll say this as nice as possible 'not well made' whereas the new cars feel like they were carved from a solid piece of metal.

I am fortunate that I have a lot of friends with Model Ss here at work and spitting distance to 4 - 5 showrooms so I did a considerable amount of research before buying new. I was considering a late 2014 P85D with 20K miles, but honestly, the car just felt like it was going to fall apart. It was just not solid feeling. After I drove that car, I went straight to a showroom and took out a new Model S for the night and the difference in feel and build quality was not even close.

 

[HankLloydRight]

I've put over 100,000 miles on my E39 M5. Still have it and drive it frequently. I find it's handling quite similar to the + suspension. And since 2014, I've also owned a P85+ and then a P85D, both with the + suspension, so I think I have very relevant experience to compare these cars.

Yes, the Teslas weigh more, but driving a non + Tesla (coils or air) and the P+ suspension is like night and day. While yes, comparing any Tesla to any other car is difficult, if someone is truly into sport sedan performance and handling, no other Tesla can come anywhere close to the sublime handing of the + suspension. Talk to any other P+ owner, and they'll tell you the same thing.

Also, the staggered rims have marginal, if any, effect on handling (I've driven both, extensively). They're really just for show/bragging rights unless you're tracking the car and pushing it to it's absolute limits of handling.

 

[stan23]

I've put over 100,000 miles on my E39 M5. Still have it and drive it frequently. I find it's handling quite similar to the + suspension. And since 2014, I've also owned a P85+ and then a P85D, both with the + suspension, so I think I have very relevant experience to compare these cars.

Yes, the Teslas weigh more, but driving a non + Tesla (coils or air) and the P+ suspension is like night and day. While yes, comparing any Tesla to any other car is difficult, if someone is truly into sport sedan performance and handling, no other Tesla can come anywhere close to the sublime handing of the + suspension. Talk to any other P+ owner, and they'll tell you the same thing.

Also, the staggered rims have marginal, if any, effect on handling (I've driven both, extensively). They're really just for show/bragging rights unless you're tracking the car and pushing it to it's absolute limits of handling.

Have you driven any of the new Model S?

I have spent time in an older P85D+, and newer cars and both felt similar. I'm not saying they are really good, but I think the + suspenders was discontinued for a reason. There is just not that much improvement/difference.

I'm somewhat a suspension freak when it comes to cars and bikes. I have have spent considerable track time on both motorcycles and cars. I come from a sports car background. At no point in driving any of the Tesla's would I compare them to say my 911.

 

[Vertice]

If you're really into performance, be aware that P85Ds with a build date before May, 2015 likely have the Performance Plus suspension from the P85+. This is a firmer sport sedan suspension most like a BMW M5. All other Tesla models have a mush-mobile suspension.

See this thread for details: Performance Plus (+) Upgrade




Just the battery and motor.

Sweet, I actually would prefer the stiffer suspension. All signs seem to point towards getting the vehicle from Tesla, regardless of if I go the route of the used P85D or the new 75D.

I think my biggest concern now is build quality and getting the car sight unseen. Either way, hopefully they resolve any build quality issues after I take delivery.

Any thoughts on buying the used P85D vs leasing the new 75D? How bad will the depreciation be in 2-3 years on a 2015 P85D?

 

[HankLloydRight]

I come from a sports car background. At no point in driving any of the Tesla's would I compare them to say my 911.

Of course not, the 911 isn't a sport sedan.

The + suspension was discontinued, but I'm certain it wasn't because there wasn't a big difference. When the P85+ was introduced, it was the flagship of the fleet, and Tesla charged I think a $10k premium for it. The website material detailed how they tweaked hundreds of variables to maximize the performance and handling. If you really can't tell that much of a difference, then you just haven't spent enough time driving one.

 

[stan23]

Sweet, I actually would prefer the stiffer suspension. All signs seem to point towards getting the vehicle from Tesla, regardless of if I go the route of the used P85D or the new 75D.

I think my biggest concern now is build quality and getting the car sight unseen. Either way, hopefully they resolve any build quality issues after I take delivery.

Any thoughts on buying the used P85D vs leasing the new 75D? How bad will the depreciation be in 2-3 years on a 2015 P85D?

If build quality is of concern, I would not look at any Tesla. Especially if you're coming from a newer Mercedes. It's not even close. I was actually considering a '18 E45, or '18 Audi S5 as my commuter car before I picked the Tesla. I had to accept that when I took delivery of my new car. The older ones are even worse. Every time I get an older vintage '15 loaner, I cringe at how badly the parts have aged--how worn out everything is and all the creaks and rattles.

Personally, a car just just a toy for me, so I don't care about depreciation.

 

[stan23]

Of course not, the 911 isn't a sport sedan.

The + suspension was discontinued, but I'm certain it wasn't because there wasn't a big difference. When the P85+ was introduced, it was the flagship of the fleet, and Tesla charged I think a $10k premium for it. The website material detailed how they tweaked hundreds of variables to maximize the performance and handling. If you really can't tell that much of a difference, then you just haven't spent enough time driving one.

That was my point. It's pointless for Tesla to even 'try' to mimic a sport sedan based on physics. The 10K premium is just a joke. Kind of like their $4000 upcharge for some upgraded speakers and a woofer at a time. It was just an insane random amount because folks can and will pay for it.

You are right, maybe I haven't spent enough time for one (I had one for a whole week).

 

[yak-55]

I've put over 100,000 miles on my E39 M5. Still have it and drive it frequently. I find it's handling quite similar to the + suspension. And since 2014, I've also owned a P85+ and then a P85D, both with the + suspension, so I think I have very relevant experience to compare these cars.

Yes, the Teslas weigh more, but driving a non + Tesla (coils or air) and the P+ suspension is like night and day. While yes, comparing any Tesla to any other car is difficult, if someone is truly into sport sedan performance and handling, no other Tesla can come anywhere close to the sublime handing of the + suspension. Talk to any other P+ owner, and they'll tell you the same thing.

Also, the staggered rims have marginal, if any, effect on handling (I've driven both, extensively). They're really just for show/bragging rights unless you're tracking the car and pushing it to it's absolute limits of handling.

+1

P85D+ owner and sports car enthusiast. I haven't been impressed by the handling of any Tesla loaner (all newer than my car).

 

[HankLloydRight]

Any thoughts on buying the used P85D vs leasing the new 75D? How bad will the depreciation be in 2-3 years on a 2015 P85D?

Well, I don't need to say it, but my opinion is obviously biased. I'd go for the P85D (with the + suspension) over any other Tesla sold, including the P100DL. Acceleration isn't everything, and the P85D+ will out handle any other PxxD sold. There are some great deals on P85Ds now as they've all taken the big depreciation hit already, and all have AP1. I'd also suggest looking for one with the Next Gen seats, which are much better for "sportier" driving. Sure, I'd love to get the facelifted front facia, but that's about the only trade-off on getting the P85D. Build quality is really quite good. And if you buy from a private party, you can still get the extended service agreement (ESA/warranty) up to 8 years or 100,000 miles. The Tesla CPO warranties are good, but not that good.

I like my P85D(+) so much, that I doubt I'd buy any other mush-mobile Tesla until (a) Tesla offers it again in the future (unlikely), (b) Tesla offers battery upgrades (unlikely) or (c) my 8-year warranty expires and I get a third-party to do a battery upgrade.

 

[HankLloydRight]

It's pointless for Tesla to even 'try' to mimic a sport sedan based on physics.

My point really was drawing an analogy to the stock BMW 525i versuse BMW E39 M5, is about the same as comparing any non+ Tesla to a P85+ or P85D(+). The differences are that significant.

 

[stan23]

My point really was drawing an analogy to the stock BMW 525i versuse BMW E39 M5, is about the same as comparing any non+ Tesla to a P85+ or P85D(+). The differences are that significant.

Hmm both cars you are mentioning are pretty ancient, and neither handle all that well IMO. To answer your analogy, I don't think the difference is as big as my f80 m3 compared to a run of the mill 3 series. An M car has completely different geometry, track, weight, and 100% of the suspension components are different. Matter of fact, in a modern M car, they used like 80% different parts.

As far as I know, the + suspension is just a few parts that are easily replaced from a run of the mill model s.

 

[HankLloydRight]

Hmm both cars you are mentioning are pretty ancient, and neither handle all that well IMO. To answer You a analogy, I don't think the difference is as big as my f80 m3 compared to a run of the mill 3 series. An M car has completely different geometry, track, weight, and 100% of the suspension components are different. Matter of fact, in a modern M car, they used like 80% different parts.

As far as I know, the + suspension is just a few parts that are easily replaced from a run of the mill model s.

You're taking this waaaay to seriously/literally. My previous comments stand on their own. I'm not going to get into a pissing contest arguing specific suspension parts/build philosophies.

My objective here was merely to alert the OP that there is a significant difference between non+ and P+ Model Ss. He can then go do his own research in the matter and draw his own conclusions. My original comment was simply: "This is a firmer sport sedan suspension most like a BMW M5" Which it absolutely is. That's it.

edit: No, the P+ parts are not easily replaced. A few people have done it, and we've discussed it in other threads.

 

[stan23]

You're taking this waaaay to seriously/literally. My previous comments stand on their own. I'm not going to get into a pissing contest arguing specific suspension parts/build philosophies.

My objective here was merely to alert the OP that there is a significant difference between non+ and P+ Model Ss. He can then go do his own research in the matter and draw his own conclusions. My original comment was simply: "This is a firmer sport sedan suspension most like a BMW M5" Which is absolutely is. That's it.

Sorry if I have upset you. I'm a performance car guy, and I love these kinds of discussions. I'm just a little tickled by the bold statement of how much better the + suspension is.

It seems the only difference between the + and non + models (if both have the same staggered 21" setup.)

* 2 x Rear lower control arms with revised stiffer bushings
* 2 x Rear upper links with revised stiffer bushings

That's it.

This is a package engineered to provide the enthusiast driver with a more responsive car and added cornering grip while maintaining excellent ride quality. While this does not include the revised dampers and stabilizer bars that the factory option does include, we have engineered this package to offer the majority of the handling benefits without requiring a full suspension removal and replacement, which would be far more costly.

The added grip of the wider rear tires necessitates the added lateral stiffness provided by the revised bushings, so the rear wheels are not available individually.

So it seems, I just just get some control arms and get 99% of the + suspension. hmm..

 

[HankLloydRight]

It seems the only difference between the + and non + models (if both have the same staggered 21" setup.)

Well, I wouldn't call it "99%" and those aren't the only differences.. as these parts in the text are fairly significant:

While this does not include the revised dampers and stabilizer bars that the factory option does include, we have engineered this package to offer the majority of the handling benefits without requiring a full suspension removal and replace

And it does make that much of a difference.

I don't know of anyone that took up Tesla on their briefly offered $13,000 offer as stated above and in the thread I linked to of the "partial" P+ upgrade. A few people have had the entire factory + retrofit done, though.

Here's how @Btr_ftw described the job of the P+ retrofit:

Front sway bar is a nightmare.

Rear swaybar requires you to drop the motor out of the car

See his awesome videos here: Car Guru

 

[HankLloydRight]

Just to add this here, here's the way Tesla originally described the P85+ suspension:

Performance Plus adds world class handling to the incredible acceleration of Model S Performance, while also improving range. After hundreds of iterations affecting every detail of the suspension, our vehicle dynamics team was able to achieve the rare outcome of improving both performance and efficiency. In addition to upgraded dampers, bushings, stabilizer bars and tires (Michelin Pilot Sport PS2), the rear tires are 20 mm wider and staggered for improved acceleration on low grip surfaces. Range improves 6 to 12 miles over regular 21” wheels.

Tesla later backed off on the range improvement claim, and in my personal experience, the staggered tires didn't make any noticeable handling differences.

 

[bnsfengineer]

I was in same Quandary... I have no regrets about purchasing new 75 over the used 85....new front, updated seats, standard air suspension, ambient lighting, and of course 4.2 0-60 Crazzzzzy Acceleration nothing nothing like ordinary gas guzzling Mercedes,BMW,or whatever!!! Oh almost forgot $7500 tax credit and in my state another $2500 rebate!! Cant get on used vehicle.

 

[stan23]

Just to add this here, here's the way Tesla originally described the P85+ suspension:



Tesla later backed off on the range improvement claim, and in my personal experience, the staggered tires didn't make any noticeable handling differences.

Ah good old tesla marketing fluff strikes again.

Honestly, I am one of those real world personal experience guys who doesn't read into marketing hype.