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Using 32A Blue socket with the Red 3-phase plug

Discussion in 'Europe' started by mgemmell, Sep 2, 2013.

  1. mgemmell

    mgemmell Scottish chap

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    Hi electric experts!

    I heard on Friday from my delivery specialist that the Model S to blue 32A Socket cable that was supposed to come with our Model S does not actually exist.

    I rarely see these sockets and prefer the red 32A three-phase one frankly, but our first night recharge (at Paris CDG) was a blue 32A socket :(

    If I build an adapter that takes the single phase in a blue plug and connects it to the three phase pins in the red 3-phase socket would that work? I will have to limit the current to 32A overall, but I have a feeling it should.

    Your feedback would be much appreciated, preferably before Friday! ;)
     
  2. widodh

    widodh Model S R231 EU

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    Sure, if you pull L1 and N out of the Red socket that should work.

    The input voltage to Model S should never exceed 240V, but if you take a Live and Neutral that won't happen. I made such adapter for the Roadster. I'll take a picture of them later today when I'm at the office.
     
  3. mgemmell

    mgemmell Scottish chap

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    It's the other way round! I have a blue socket at the hotel and I need to connect a red plug (that Tesla supply with the Model S). So I have Live and Neutral but I need Phase 1 Phase 2 Phase 3 and N.

    In theory it should work... but the first time I will get to test the theory looks like Friday night when we arrive at Paris CDG with an empty Model S and 1360kms left to drive!
     
  4. widodh

    widodh Model S R231 EU

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    Ehh, no, that won't work.

    If you have One Phase you can't get three phases. You can hook up the Live from the socket to L1, L2 and L3 since the Model S charges at 230V and not at 400V.

    It will however start to draw 48A in total (3x16A), so you will have to limit the Model S to 10A. Since it assumes 3-phases power it will draw 3x10A or 30A in total.

    I thought it was this:

    tesla-roadster-umc-blue-32A-cee-small.jpg

    That is wat I did with the UMC for the Roadster.
     
  5. mgemmell

    mgemmell Scottish chap

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    Yeah, that's what I am thinking. Obviously if the Model S was trying to get 400V between the phases this would not work, but I suspect that what we actually have are three parallel 220V circuits. That's what I am hoping anyway! :)

    I will limit it to 30A as you suggest. The problem is I will try all this for the first time with the Model S near empty, on Friday night, and as my first Model S charging experience!

    I have the same three to single phase adapter as you for the Roadster. I have asked the hotels to install 32A three-phase connectors precisely because in the Roadster that is what you want, while for the Model S a simple 32A male to 16A female adapter will be needed.

    Thanks for your help. I'll be posting on my blog (driveandream.blogspot.com) which in turn goes through to facebook (driveandream) and twitter (driveandream) so it should be possible to follow our progress.

    I hope it goes well as I have my wife and three kids coming on the journey :)
     
  6. widodh

    widodh Model S R231 EU

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    Since the Model S reports voltages in the 230V range I indeed suspect three different AC paths where it doesn't care about the 120 degrees shift between the phases.

    Since it is also able to pull 80A on a single phase according to Tesla.

    Just make sure you have the right cabling and a volt meter with you!

    Btw, the Ikea in Reims (France) has a 3x63A charger available where you can charge with 3x32A if you want to. But I think Reims is a bit off the road.
     
  7. mgemmell

    mgemmell Scottish chap

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    Yeah, voltmeter is a must have! I have killed a UMC for my Roadster already as a result of not using one :(

    Good call with the IKEA idea, although Reims is too far to be of use, perhaps this a general thing with all IKEAs??
     
  8. J-Philipp

    J-Philipp Member

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    #8 J-Philipp, Sep 4, 2013
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2013
    You'll find Ikea in the "Paris NORD II" commercial area, which is very near Charles de Gaulle Airport. I was there yesterday, but couldn't spot any recharge point in the parking outside. But I've just checked on ChargeMap App, and it shows that a fast charging station is available in the inside parking. I think it's very convenient for you, as you should be able to reach 108km/hr...(assuming you have dual chargers installed)
    BTW are you traveling with a type 3 cable in the trunk ? You don't need this at Ikea, but just asking...
     
  9. mgemmell

    mgemmell Scottish chap

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    Got dual chargers. That's a great recommendation. If we have any trouble with the Novotel socket I will go there, although I suppose it will close at some time.

    I have a Mennekes cable being delivered to Tilburg so I that's a yes I think :)
     
  10. Kevin Sharpe

    Kevin Sharpe Active Member

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    "Mennekes" is Type 2... you'll need a different cable to plug in at Type 3 Charging Stations...

    IEC 62196 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
  11. J-Philipp

    J-Philipp Member

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    #11 J-Philipp, Sep 5, 2013
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2013
    ChargeMap says that opening hrs are 10:00-20:00, 7/7.
    But I just checked for you on their website, and it seems that they close at 22:00 on Fridays.
    You'll find restaurants there, albeit rather dreaded ones ! (Quick, Mc Donald's, Ikea restaurant, Pizzeria ) :wink:. Anyway, the whole area is not a pleasant one at night...

    Not sure yet. Mennekes is ok on the vehicle side, but in most places, you're likely to find type 3 on the charger side upon visiting French fast charging stations. That makes Ikea charger even more enjoyable, as you don't need this cable there (hopefully).

    I was wondering : given that you could get permission to use the red adapter on a (3-phase, 400v, 32A) plug in CDG area, what would be the maximum power used by the UMC ? 20 kw (dual chargers) ? Or is there a lower limit when using UMC ? (Updated : just found the answer by myself from Tesla website : 11kw)
     
  12. mgemmell

    mgemmell Scottish chap

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    Any link to info about type 3 connectors? I get very confused by all these standards frankly. I though Mennekes was enough, and the UMC with various adapters would cover the rest.
     
  13. J-Philipp

    J-Philipp Member

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    #13 J-Philipp, Sep 5, 2013
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2013
    image.jpg
    Type 3 - EV plug alliance.
    We have a way of doing things in France. Hope that'll cease one day.
    Sorry.

    Overnight charging at hotels + jumping from one Ikea to another and you should be able to make it to Spain. And if you happen to have only type 3 available at some place, see If you can spot a Zoe owner and make a friend. He has the cable you're looking for...
     
  14. J-Philipp

    J-Philipp Member

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    I've just checked your blog @driveandream :

    You'll have to drive slowly then, because the Model S 85 Kwh is only rated 265 miles by EPA = 426 Km, and I believe that most of this range test was conducted at speeds lower than 88 Km/h. I would advise to use cruise control, keep a good margin (80 Km) of range upon planning your trip (so max legs would be 426-80= 346 km), and if it turns out that you won't be able to spare the margin, SLOW DOWN (although you may find it very unconfortable on french motorways, where everyone drives at 130).
     
  15. mgemmell

    mgemmell Scottish chap

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    Exactly right. I found that I could average about 165kW/h at 90km/h. It helped if I was behind a truck, but not as much as I expected, and as we were going at truck speeds we didn't get any trouble with other carsf frankly.

    Driving like that I suspect I can do 460kms reliably (on the long drives over the weekend I watched closely the expected range average over the last 50kms and added that to the distance covered. 7kms per 100m up and 5kms for 100m down worked well (same values as I use for the Roadster!), and as you said, keeping a safety margin was wise, although as we neared our night time stop and final destination these margins were relaxed to 30kms and 12kms respectively (as there was enough time to get a 100% charge overnight).

    One thing that is totally absent from the Model S (I think) is altitude information. In the Roadster both the basic car info displays and the Sat Nav include altitude, and when you are watching expected range and energy use you MUST factor in altitude changes in order to make sense of them. I ended up downloading an altitude app because it is vital to know if you are climbing or dropping.

    In fact, it really should form part of the expected range calculations, and ideally would be included in the Sat Nav route calculations. The Sat Nav could be smarter too... it should allow us to prioritize routes that are on slower but shorter roads, and should avoid sharp climbs and drops if possible. I'll post these comments in other threads...
     
  16. Kratus

    Kratus Member

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    I guess you mean 165 Wh/km.
    Pretty good !
     
  17. J-Philipp

    J-Philipp Member

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    #17 J-Philipp, Sep 9, 2013
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2013
    Fully agreed. It's been a long time by now since the request was first made in this forum. Altitude changes do matter. Navigation could be smarter.
    As for shorter roads, most of the websites featuring road planning already include this type of optimization. Michelin does it perfectly. Whether you'll decide for it mostly depends on the power available at the next recharge point, and the time you would allow to stop there.
    e.g if you have SCs on route, just drive the speed you want and stick at motorways (assuming of course you have enough range between SCs). Same applies if you're going to stop overnight and be ready to set off with a full battery the next morning.
    But if you have only low recharge power en route, and you have no choice but standing by your car and wait until you have enough to make it to your next stop, then shortest way is also the fastest, even you're under the impression that you're loosing time on small roads crawling through villages. You'll spare precious kWh you won't have to recharge at low current...
     
  18. FlasherZ

    FlasherZ Sig Model S + Sig Model X + Model 3 Resv

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    I roughly get 300 Wh/mi (roughly 180 Wh/km) driving at 100 km/hr (60 mi/hr), flat roads, constant speed, no wind. The EPA rating is a broad cycle test that includes multiple environments (speed, traffic, etc.) as well as climate control, etc. It's a pretty representative, real-world test that is centered around 100-110 km/hr.
     
  19. mgemmell

    mgemmell Scottish chap

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    Ok, well, just to get back to the original topic of this thread....

    Here is the answer to my original question "Using 32A Blue socket with the Red 3-phase plug":

    If you plug the UMC cable for the Model S with its red CEE 16A 3-phase plug into a blue 32A single phase socket using an adapter (blue 32A to red 16A) and you bridge the 3 phase pins to the same single phase you WILL NOT fool the car. Either the UMC or the car is detecting that they are not different phases and it only charges single phase (when on 3 phase a small 3 in a circle appears beside the current being drawn).

    So if you want to use the blue 32A sockets that can be found around France (Novotel Paris CDG Terminal for instance), as well as other countries, you will need to wait for the adapter to be made and sold by Tesla, or buy a portable wall box and convince it to draw 32A single phase (don't know how though).

    That concludes the question I posed initially... let the conversation on efficient driving continue :)
     
  20. gregincal

    gregincal Active Member

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    On route planning, check out evtripper.com's Route Planner. It does all the proper altitude and speed calculations to estimate energy usage (it will show everything in miles, though).
     

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