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V10 and Battery "Degradation"

Yeah, my SR is going through this. I had higher than normal degradation at six months and 7k miles when the software limit kicked in. I went from 232 miles at 100% down to 208 at 100%. Somewhere around v.2019.28.2.2 it dropped to 205, and with v10 it dropped to 200 miles at 100%. I am not very pleased. My stats app says 9.09% degradation in 7 months and 8000 miles.

I figure either Tesla is monkeying with the constant again, or hiding kWh as Bjorn claims, or I'll be getting a warrantee battery replacement in about a year.
 
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Another 100% to 10%, back to 100% cycle is complete.

Car is now showing 230 mi displayed range. Seems to be improving my range about 5mi each time that I do this, roughly 2% increase. Maybe if I keep repeating it I'll get a long range model 3 ;)
I'll see if this pans out to actual increased kwh capacity in the battery.

I wonder if they reset the BMS in V10, and maybe it's fallback safe starting point is ~5kwh away from max, which happens to be the SR- range on my car. When it starts charging past the 220 mi point, it retards the charging current. Below 220 mi, it's charging at 271Vac at 24A. Above 220 mi, it starts lowering the current. At 226 mi of range, charging current was 6A.

I don't trust that the trip meter is 100% accurate and includes all energy usage.

Please... We're not talking a 1-2% discrepancy here, we're talking closer to 10%. You can only question it so far, however the car was fine prior to V10. Reminds me of lab partners trying to explain away why their circuits didn't work because of rounding errors, component tolerances and multi-meter inaccuracies. If the project is off by 10%, it's not rounding errors...

The car isn't going to consume 5kwh sitting still for 30 minutes either.

Prior to V10, 80%, my regular charging max corresponded to 195-200 miles of displayed range, every single day. I have more than 5000 miles on the car, and have had it since early June. Post V10, it corresponded to 175-180 miles of displayed range. If you want to ignore the range in distance, and instead use %, my daily commute round trip would take my battery from 80% to 60-65%, and consumed 13-15kwh. Now it's taking the battery down to 50-55%, for roughly the same 15kwh. I'm in SoCal, with a consistent commute, with zero traffic and temperatures haven't varied that much. There certainly wasn't a change the day before V10 rolled out, and the day after, yet I experienced an immediate difference in estimated battery capacity after my round trip commute.
 

glide

Well-Known Member
Jun 6, 2018
5,648
8,046
USA
Yeah, my SR is going through this. I had higher than normal degradation at six months and 7k miles when the software limit kicked in. I went from 232 miles at 100% down to 208 at 100%. Somewhere around v.2019.28.2.2 it dropped to 205, and with v10 it dropped to 200 miles at 100%. I am not very pleased. My stats app says 9.09% degradation in 7 months and 8000 miles.

I figure either Tesla is monkeying with the constant again, or hiding kWh as Bjorn claims, or I'll be getting a warrantee battery replacement in about a year.

Tesla is not replacing any batteries. Older MS owners, who still have batteries under warranty, are being told to pound sand.

What do you think Tesla is going to say to M3 owners if that is the stance they are taking with early adopters of their flagship product?

That is why they are being sued. The batteries are defective, pose a major safety risk, and they are taking it upon themselves to address the issue via software rather than perform a recall on the entire fleet.
 

AlanSubie4Life

Efficiency Obsessed Member
Oct 22, 2018
14,989
19,361
San Diego
Another 100% to 10%, back to 100% cycle is complete.

Car is now showing 230 mi displayed range.

I believe that even if you have a charging interrupt, you may be able to resume it and the screen will show the total charge (rated miles & kWh) added. But not 100% sure about that. Pretty sure I have stopped and resumed Supercharger sessions and in the end the final total is displayed.

If you haven't unplugged yet, you should be able to bring up the charging screen and gather the data (again you have to switch the display mode to be able to gather both pieces of data). If not, there is always next time.

There is not really any question that the trip meter is off by ~5% vs. the charging screen (209Wh/rmi vs. 219Wh/rmi). So that difference can be significant. It's just a number, just a meter - remember the trip meter actually means absolutely nothing except as a relative measurement of efficiency vs. prior trips (very important for that). It could be off by 1000% and nothing would change; it would not matter. And of course it has a constant, well-defined relationship (for most people) to your rated miles used, as has been described ad nauseum elsewhere. And because rated miles are an indicator of energy available, with absolutely no dependence on driving habits, certainly it matters very much how many of those show on your screen.

Anyway, I think for your 230 rated miles you should see (extrapolated): 48.1kWh (discharge) and 50.4kWh (charging). (vs. 50.2kWh/52.6kWh new)

Good luck. Glad to hear you are getting some range back.
 
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glide

Well-Known Member
Jun 6, 2018
5,648
8,046
USA
Wow, @glide, you sure know how to make a girl feel special. o_O

Tesla will definitely be in hot water if they refuse to honor their warrantee.

Thats why we need more people, including Model 3 owners, to recognize this is an issue that also impacts them.

The “Tesla can do no wrong” mantra needs to stop. I get that people like their new cars. Start reading up on the situation, get involved, and help get results.
 
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AlanSubie4Life

Efficiency Obsessed Member
Oct 22, 2018
14,989
19,361
San Diego
I figure either Tesla is monkeying with the constant again

Can someone provide me the link to the video showing the evidence of this constant changing in the Model 3 AWD? Bjorn's latest video unfortunately did not provide the evidence for this, but presumably he has an earlier video. 100% certain it has been 230Wh/rmi since early May (again for AWD/Performance). And I believe it has been that way since January 2019 (but less sure about that; don't have the supporting pictures - I deleted them as I really had far too many pictures of my trip odometer data :rolleyes:).

Or perhaps someone can point me to a post here from last year or something where someone actually measured this. It's not actually hard at all to do so the post must exist....
 
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glide

Well-Known Member
Jun 6, 2018
5,648
8,046
USA
Tesla is not replacing any batteries. Older MS owners, who still have batteries under warranty, are being told to pound sand.

What do you think Tesla is going to say to M3 owners if that is the stance they are taking with early adopters of their flagship product?

That is why they are being sued. The batteries are defective, pose a major safety risk, and they are taking it upon themselves to address the issue via software rather than perform a recall on the entire fleet.

Loving the downvote @MP3Mike . Now we know who the Tesla employees are on the forum.
 
This issue has been impacting MS owners for months now. There are data points available.

Maybe swing over to other sections of the forum to educate yourself.

You’re in the model 3 forum my friend, not model S. Different cars, different batteries. ...

One video comes out, with many other videos illustrating minimal loss, and you ask for more model 3 owners to get on board with the “Tesla can do no wrong mantra”.
What is your SOC at 100%.
What experience do you have with your car.

I like his video’s, but I don’t automatically jump to the conclusion that this is a Tesla conspiracy that need a a lawsuit ASAP...

What is your Mantra regarding Tesla. ?
 

glide

Well-Known Member
Jun 6, 2018
5,648
8,046
USA
You’re in the model 3 forum my friend, not model S. Different cars, different batteries. ...

One video comes out, with many other videos illustrating minimal loss, and you ask for more model 3 owners to get on board with the “Tesla can do no wrong mantra”.
What is your SOC at 100%.
What experience do you have with your car.

I like his video’s, but I don’t automatically jump to the conclusion that this is a Tesla conspiracy that need a a lawsuit ASAP...

What is your Mantra regarding Tesla. ?

I don’t know how many times I can point the Model 3 folks to the several-hundred-page long thread in the S forums.

This issue impacts ALL Tesla batteries.

Go do some reading if you want, or don’t. Some people will always bury their heads in the sand I guess.
 
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209Wh/rmi * 220rmi = 46kWh (discharging, trip meter)
I have no idea why "trip meter" calculation works as we knew it's ALWAYS short of kWh.

If your car has OBD2, you can buy an OBD2 adapter and use the app "Scan My Tesla" to get exact numbers of nominal and buffer kWh to end the debate.
(the pic below is downloaded from internet few months ago)

m191016.jpg
 
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AlanSubie4Life

Efficiency Obsessed Member
Oct 22, 2018
14,989
19,361
San Diego
I have no idea why "trip meter" calculation works as we knew it's ALWAYS short of kWh.

It is always short but that is ok - it is also consistent.

Lots of talk today about the constant “changing.” Dug up an old post of mine from February showing that it has been 230Wh/rmi since are least then (see the last datapoint).

Not sure I have any older data, but I am sure someone has posted pictures which would let us see even further back.

Trying to Understand Efficiency

At least we can be 100% sure nothing has changed since February as far as the constant is concerned. For the Performance/AWD.

(I do think that the LR RWD constant probably changed at some point (coincident with the 310->325 mile change).) But not sure anyone ever measured that. It is something like 223Wh/rmi now, for the LR RWD, for discharge. It might have been 234Wh/rmi before that (no idea).
 
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This issue has been impacting MS owners for months now. There are data points available.

Maybe swing over to other sections of the forum to educate yourself.
You are missinterpretating a few things.
It is not ALL MS owners, it is just the 85 S pack that was downgraded and it was due to the fires - what Tesla did was to dicrease the Voltage for the full charge from 4.2 to 4.12 or something. This was indeed done to prevent fires and you have to give props to that. Watch the Jack Rickard videos he explains it.

And secondly, if you watch the Bjørn live Video and his live stream, he actually proofs that the Voltage on the M3 never dropped. The 3 can still charge to the full 4.2V, probably due to a better pack.

Bjørn sees a drop in range, which he miscalculated a bit, and assumes it has something to do with an update. I can confirm that it did not and I am sure he will confirm this in a follow up Video.

I love his channel, but he sometimes goes for the clickbait blockbuster titles just to get views(he did mention it around the end of his live stream video). And I am no where near a Tesla employee since I just shoot a video "Tesla is lying to you about the rated range..." Which they kind of do in a way, but this has nothing to do with Updates, but with EPA ratings.
 
Can someone provide me the link to the video showing the evidence of this constant changing in the Model 3 AWD? Bjorn's latest video unfortunately did not provide the evidence for this, but presumably he has an earlier video. 100% certain it has been 230Wh/rmi since early May (again for AWD/Performance). And I believe it has been that way since January 2019 (but less sure about that; don't have the supporting pictures - I deleted them as I really had far too many pictures of my trip odometer data :rolleyes:).

Or perhaps someone can point me to a post here from last year or something where someone actually measured this. It's not actually hard at all to do so the post must exist....
Unfortunately he did not provide any evidence. He could have easily gone to the energy tab and see what the typical is, it is written there. What he did is, he assumed that he has zero degradation (which after 40,000km is ridiculous to assume) and just calculated his degradated range with a new constant and assumes that Tesla changed something after an update. What actually happened is, his capacity did decrease after 40k and the constant remained the same - this is why he sees shorter range.

What he did is, he took X capacity from brand new/constant.
And after 40k He used the same X capacity brand new/ new constant he claims came after update.

What he should've done is take X minus degradation of 3-4kWh/ the same constant as brand new and come to the rated range displayed.

I have a newer car and can confirm that nothing changed during updates and most likely he is seeing normal degradation of about 3-4%. He also miscalculated some things in his video.
 

Az_Rael

Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
Jan 26, 2016
5,682
8,990
Palmdale, CA
It appears I have lost the 325 mile upgrade from my LR in one of the recent updates. I got the 325 upgrade and had actually kept it up until the last update. Looks like I lost it in one of the dot v10 releases.


Unfortunate, but hard for me to complain about since I am back to what was sold to me in 2017.
 
My half year old Mid Range lost ~5% way before V10. Instead of losing couple km, I actually gained couple km after getting V10. So I think his range loss has nothing to do with V10. I think the BMS software has bugs and Tesla's QA still has no clue to reproduce it.

I did notice something that I did in that past that might have something to do with the range loss after software update. But It is just a guess. In the past, I always installed software update in the middle of a charging session. I updated software while my car was being charged for at least 3 times and the range also went down 3 notches where each notch was like 7km. I am not sure if doing that would mess up the BMS calculation but I stopped the range loss trend after I stopped doing that.
 

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