v11 software update SUCKS

[Msjulie]

More AI will be implemented into the cars. If you don’t like that I’d move on too

Yep no argument there. Silly me thinking a Performance Model 3 was for drivers to drive.

 

[Amped412]

Yep no argument there. Silly me thinking a Performance Model 3 was for drivers to drive.

You’ll be able to take it to a track to drive. Just not on the highway. Like how now you can’t ride a horse on the highway but you can ride a horse on a trail or track. That reality is years away but it’s the reality Elon sees coming.

 

[smogne41]

Yep no argument there. Silly me thinking a Performance Model 3 was for drivers to drive.

Yeah, I think if V11 gets forced to my car I may have to sell soon after as well. Something tells me resale on these things is not going to hold up forever. That or I will just save it for parts for an EV conversion

 

[Aleblanc]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1481724767363338246

Madness. My 3.5 years love affair with my Model 3 ended on December 25th when Elon & co entered my $80k car and removed buttons that I relied on for safety and ease of use.

 

[Msjulie]

You’ll be able to take it to a track to drive. Just not on the highway. Like how now you can’t ride a horse on the highway but you can ride a horse on a trail or track. That reality is years away but it’s the reality Elon sees coming.

I don't honestly think I'll live to see that day but sure .

And when/if that happens, sure, but right now that is far beyond what my car can do (more so since I refused to pay 10-12k for a beta) and since a driver is still required that reality should be reflected in the car's controls, not some pipe dream for the future.

 

[Amped412]

I don't honestly think I'll live to see that day but sure .

And when/if that happens, sure, but right now that is far beyond what my car can do (more so since I refused to pay 10-12k for a beta) and since a driver is still required that reality should be reflected in the car's controls, not some pipe dream for the future.

I agree. But we bought cars from our generations biggest dreamer lol

 

[Msjulie]

I agree. But we bought cars from our generations biggest dreamer lol

Ha yes!

Time to save pennies - there's some neat, pricey EVs on the horizon

 

[wdolson]

The problem with this viewpoint is that it assumes Tesla programmers have the knowledge/experience/skill to faultlessly code all the instructions required for safe vehicle operation in every possible situation. I intentionally didn't say "foreseeable" because unforeseen situations arise every day and the human brain has to find a way to deal with them. Elon loves to aim high, but I'd say his target is unachievable even with AI (which also has to be programmed by humans). In the meantime, Tesla buyers are held hostage to a philosophy that they may not fully support and over which they have zero control or input.

If they can't make windshield wipers or climate controls operate adequately in automatic mode, how can they possibly take responsibility for all driving functions away from the driver?

People who live their lives by logic like to assume that everybody in the world is going to always make logical conclusions. It's built into a lot of economic theories and it's built into things like automated cars. The problem is that humans are messy and almost all make irrational decisions sometimes and some make them all the time.

Coming up with a self driving AI that navigates empty streets or streets filled with other automated vehicles it can communicate with is a fairly easy problem. The only unpredictable things are weather related. Trying to navigate an automated vehicle on city streets with pedestrians, human driven cars, people on bikes, skateboards, etc. is a nightmare scenario to try and train a computer to handle.

The secret weapon humans have over computers is that we automatically screen out irrelevant information amazingly fast. Computers can't do that. They can fake it by working many times faster than a human, but in a dynamic, fast moving situation with a lot of variables a human experienced in the situation can probably still beat a computer every time.

That's why commercial airliners still have human pilots. There have been accidents in recent years where a human went and did the wrong thing, but there are also cases where a human was able to save the day in a feat of quick thinking. Sully Sullivan became an international figure when he figured out the best way to ditch a 737 into the Hudson river with only a couple of seconds to think and act.

We may reach a point where AIs can drive cars 99+% of the time, but will never be able to handle every edge case. If that happens in some situations like driving on open highways you might be able to pay attention to something else, but for city driving the driver will legally need to pay attention all the time (though most won't because it will be incredibly boring). All the predictions about the economic benefits of FSD without needing a driver will go out the window and driving will become an incredibly boring chore of watching the car drive itself. Various jurisdictions will rake in lots of money ticketing people who aren't paying attention to their cars driving itself.

UI implementer 1: "hey, lets optimize the UI. lets group some things together so that its 2-tier or more to get there."
UI implementer 2: "but, uhm, dont we have 1920 pixels across on this big screen? why are you taking things away?"

[...crickets...]

that kind of sums it up. they have more space than god, himself, on that screen, and yet they take things AWAY.

children are running the show. no other explanation, either literal or figurative.

go ahead and move to texas. maybe it will help. I doubt it, but anything they do could only help, at this point, they need to fire the whole UI group and rehire new ones. not kidding.

Back in the early days of Microsoft 80-100 hour work weeks were common and Microsoft discriminated against people with families in their hiring decisions (they got sued and lost over that). As a result they had a constant churn of kids just out of college who would work there a few years and then move on to something less stressful.

As time went on they discovered that the code was so badly hacked together that changing it was becoming increasingly difficult. One thing they learned is that older programmers might have a life outside of work and not be willing to sell their soul to the company, but they have usually been bitten by old, undocumented code, and they are more careful to write code that can be changed later.

Tesla too is a youth culture with a constant churn of young idealists starting there only to move on to something less stressful after a while. As a result I think it's impacting their ability to update the software. A new programmer with little experience is trying to untangle a mess of spaghetti code written by another newbee 5 years ago and they make a further hash of it.

 

[WattsappMTL]

That's why commercial airliners still have human pilots. There have been accidents in recent years where a human went and did the wrong thing, but there are also cases where a human was able to save the day in a feat of quick thinking. Sully Sullivan became an international figure when he figured out the best way to ditch a 737 into the Hudson river with only a couple of seconds to think and act.

Just a point of accuracy - it was "Sully" Sullenberger and the aircraft was an A320. I have my doubts that the outcome would have been the same with a manually-controlled aircraft like the B737. However, automating an aircraft is a significantly simpler task than a road vehicle because its operating environment is much more predictable.

 

[linux-works]

It should go away eventually, unless they have changed that behavior (possible). You might want to also remove the car from WiFI if you have not already, you will get many less updates downloaded that way.

when there was a 'big update' that tesla wanted you to install, I'd get the nag. I'd refuse it (x-out of it) and in a few weeks, it would time out and stop bothering me until the next big update. this is with no wifi creds entered or known to the car.

the current nag wont go away, I have to x-close it every day when I start. I never defer I just close.

so stupid. users should have the right to be left alone. I hope there's legal action; because, they stopped listening/caring about users. and this behavior is unacceptable in a car I bought. BOUGHT.

quit nagging me. I'm not on 'advanced' for a reason. leave me the hell alone!

but no. tesla knows better.

morons.

 

[linux-works]

Tesla too is a youth culture with a constant churn of young idealists starting there only to move on to something less stressful after a while. As a result I think it's impacting their ability to update the software. A new programmer with little experience is trying to untangle a mess of spaghetti code written by another newbee 5 years ago and they make a further hash of it.

it happens to most of the bay area companies. its hard to retain people and companies don't do themselves any favors in how they treat their hires. so, there is no loyalty (or virtually none) and there is a lot of churn.

when the code grows in complexity and the writers are all gone for greener pastures, the new guys get maintenance duty and it rarely goes well.

if you have discipline like an aerospace or mil company (that's been doing 'nines' for decades) you can keep the quality under control. if you are a cowboy (yeee HAW!) company, you'll make as many bugs as features you newly create. you wont have a handle on what's really going on in your code and your people dont have the history to understand why its this way.

tesla breaks too many things and it shows me they are cowboys at the helm.

note to those not in the US: this is not a compliment.

 

[OxBrew]

All input is error? What about the 'input' the coders are adding to the software? THAT input is sacred?

Standard AP can't even drive 200 ft in one inch of fresh snow.

Elon can f___ off with that statement. It's just wrong.

 

[smogne41]

when there was a 'big update' that tesla wanted you to install, I'd get the nag. I'd refuse it (x-out of it) and in a few weeks, it would time out and stop bothering me until the next big update. this is with no wifi creds entered or known to the car.

the current nag wont go away, I have to x-close it every day when I start. I never defer I just close.

so stupid. users should have the right to be left alone. I hope there's legal action; because, they stopped listening/caring about users. and this behavior is unacceptable in a car I bought. BOUGHT.

quit nagging me. I'm not on 'advanced' for a reason. leave me the hell alone!

but no. tesla knows better.

morons.

Unfortunately I expect most of us did not opt out of arbitration when we bought our cars. I regret not doing that now for sure. Makes legal action kind hard...

 

[wdolson]

Just a point of accuracy - it was "Sully" Sullenberger and the aircraft was an A320. I have my doubts that the outcome would have been the same with a manually-controlled aircraft like the B737. However, automating an aircraft is a significantly simpler task than a road vehicle because its operating environment is much more predictable.

Sorry, I forgot some details. I had a nagging feeling when I wrote it something was wrong, but didn't take the time to look it up.

I've made the point before that the problem for an aircraft's autopilot is much simpler because there are vastly fewer edge conditions. Even at that all aircraft that carry passengers have pilots. All the larger drones (military) have a controller from the ground in the loop at all times.

All input is error? What about the 'input' the coders are adding to the software? THAT input is sacred?

Standard AP can't even drive 200 ft in one inch of fresh snow.

Elon can f___ off with that statement. It's just wrong.

I think what Elon meant was that if a human needs to take over from the AI, the AI has failed in it's job and that becomes an area where the AI needs to be improved. I did not interpret it as a criticism on the human drivers.

 

[Boza]

Aerospace is much more regulated than automotive. That is why implementing automation is much easier. Essentially, everyone moves at the same pace, with “sandboxes” for laggers.
Until AI becomes better than humans, the controls must be intuitive/easy for humans. V11 outpaced the FSD capabilities (it is a bad entertainment UI as well but that is a different topic).
I agree with Elon that humans make mistakes but, at the moment, AI is not ready to take over. FSD is still beta; I have been a general release for quite some time.
Keeping the car for now (no viable alternatives) but concerned about the residual value, given the direction they are taking. Unfortunately, V11 is not an isolated case. It is a trend.

 

[OxBrew]

I think what Elon meant was that if a human needs to take over from the AI, the AI has failed in it's job and that becomes an area where the AI needs to be improved. I did not interpret it as a criticism on the human drivers.

That's what I thought when he said that before, but this was in response to a video showing more options for controls to be added to the bottom bar on the screen. It makes no sense in this case.

In the case of changing climate or wipers or seat heaters, users only change them when the are in the WRONG state, so input is actually CORRECTING the WRONG auto functions (or lack of function).

 

[ncsmith4]

Based on Elons latest dismissal of the excellent fan made video recommendations for V11, I have zero hope that the “many UI improvements coming soon” will be what is needed.

I filed a NHTSA complaint against Tesla burying critical driving functions like defroster and defogger in sub menus.

Recommend anyone unhappy with V11 to also file with NHTSA: Report a Safety Problem | NHTSA

 

[Electro664]

in a few weeks, it would time out and stop bothering me until the next big update. this is with no WiFi creds entered or known to the car.

My car downloaded a firmware, via the cars mobile network, I assume, around a month ago. I had deleted all data networks, to avoid this. Pushed via Tesla connectivity, is the only conclusion. I had had no firmware install nags for over 6 months. I was only getting the occasional much less intrusive nag to set up wifi. This firmware Tesla slipped me is taking much longer to stop nagging me every time I get in the car, or park it. Wondering if you are only allowed to skip so many, and then pushed a permanent nag? No need to point out the less than ideal situation of driving this car with out of date software. I will avoid using the A/P. Expect I will eventually be forced. Every month is a gift, lol.
Looks like every major V. update demands a huge learning curve just to drive the car. Not everyone wants this. There seems to be little empathy from Tesla, so I won't waste my time complaining anymore. Did that, for V10. Why not core functions that are switches in ICE cars stay on the bottom of the screen, and never disappear(custom better). And, all the new secondary toys and less used functions can be buried in some drab monotone, no eye catching colour buttons, new where is it sub menu?

 

[Boza]

I see it as buying time until viable alternatives appear. I love the car but the trend is concerning and, if they continue this way, that will be my last Tesla

 

[wdolson]

That's what I thought when he said that before, but this was in response to a video showing more options for controls to be added to the bottom bar on the screen. It makes no sense in this case.

In the case of changing climate or wipers or seat heaters, users only change them when the are in the WRONG state, so input is actually CORRECTING the WRONG auto functions (or lack of function).

OK, that is nuts. I have the wipers on automatic most of the time, but there are times they don't notice the wipers need to be run and I hit the button on the end of the stalk to run the wipers once. This can happen if there is something on the windshield that isn't near the sensor. Earlier today I drove under a tree after it had been raining. Some water dripped off the tree in a scattershot pattern across the windshield. The sensor didn't get hit so I had to run the wipers manually.

In the Northwest, west of the Cascades the weather in the winter can often be very misty all day. The wiper sensor is not always great at detecting this and running the wipers manually is necessary. On the older S (and I think a lot of the other cars), one tap of the end of the stalk does the job.

People also need different heating and cooling requirements based on how they are dressed. Also people (mostly women, but it can happen to men too) who are having hormone issues can experience hot flashes. A seat temperature that was perfectly comfortable 5 minutes ago may be too hot now and the car can't sense this.

If that's where he's going, he's lost it.

It sounds like he's also only focusing on controls for the newest cars. There are a lot of cars in the fleet that will never have the capability of the kind of automation he's talking about. Even if the new cars can detect that the windshield is fogging up and run the defroster automatically (if any do it's only on the latest S and X), mine doesn't have any hardware capable of sensing that condition, so the defrosters have to be turned on manually. Burying them where I need to do extra steps to get to them isn't helping.

If some cars have the ability to sense this and run automatically, good on them, give them a special version of the AI with the functions hidden from the driver because the driver won't need them. Split off support for the legacy fleet (which right now is all but a few thousand cars) and give them the controls the driver needs.

If you want to make the pre-2017 or 2018 S and X owners happy, roll that fleet back to the V8 UI. That was very popular. There were a lot of complaints when it went away, but the changes didn't hide anything that drivers needed, it just disabled some popular features. If they got rid of all the games going back to that interface fine with me.