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V2G (Vehicle to Grid) Poll

Discussion in 'Supercharging & Charging Infrastructure' started by Olle, Apr 10, 2018.

?

If an 'emergency only' V2G was available, would you install it?

  1. Yes

    19 vote(s)
    50.0%
  2. No

    8 vote(s)
    21.1%
  3. Yes for max $1000

    4 vote(s)
    10.5%
  4. Yes for max $2000

    2 vote(s)
    5.3%
  5. It depends

    5 vote(s)
    13.2%
  1. Olle

    Olle Member

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    Just read the interesting poll V2grid (Vehicle to Grid) and Tesla about if V2G was available, would you install it?
    It polled pretty unfavourably at only 32% yes.

    Between not wanting to wear out your car's battery pack, already having Powerwalls or living in a state without "Time of Usage", it's easy to understand why it would be unpopular.

    But. if it were restricted to only emergency back up in case of a power outage, with the nice side effect of any installed solar panels running in said outgate. It could have an anti-islanding grid disconnect and a decent quality inverter back feeding your house. I'm imagining if it is designed to run only occasionally it could be less expensive than a continuous V2G unit, needing fewer lifetime hours.

    If you voted "it depends", on what?
     
  2. MikeInFL

    MikeInFL Member

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    I just want my UMC to backfeed into the house (when my main breaker is shut off of course)
     
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  3. Olle

    Olle Member

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    Me too! First, we need to rewrite the national electrical code :) so that energized blades are allowed to feed your outlet
     
    • Like x 2
  4. MikeInFL

    MikeInFL Member

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    Nah, it’s fine... Just don’t be dumb :) Haha
     
  5. MikeInFL

    MikeInFL Member

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    For real though there’s no reason a backfeed can’t be done safely with the proper precautions. (Maybe not a UMC, but a UMC like device that would feed in the same way a generator connects to a home)
     
  6. Helmuth

    Helmuth Member

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    I would like to have a 110V outlet like some other cars!
    That should be a no brainer...
     
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  7. Olle

    Olle Member

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    #7 Olle, Apr 10, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2018
    Agreed. An UMC like back feeding device could be programmed to only energize blades when properly plugged in. The device could connect to the battery via the DC circuit (supercharger circuit) in the Tesla and have an inverter in the UMC box, and then a through-the-wire signal to a computerized grid disconnect pre installed at the service entrance. This handshake signal to grid disconnect could double as OK to energize the blades. Done!

    One more thing. Home inverters are huge but don't need to. Since a 500 kW inverter fits in the can by the rear motor, a 100 kW should fit in an UMC box. Not that it needs to be that powerful, just sayin it would fit.

    Yet one more thing. More elegant would perhaps be to utilize the motor inverter? but then there needs to be extra wires and contractors, so not super elegant
     
  8. FlatSix911

    FlatSix911 Porsche 918 Hybrid

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    Interesting reading ... Electric vehicle fleets could save billions with controllable load and vehicle-to-grid features

    The advent of electric vehicles is expected to increase the demand for electricity, but EVs also offer some advantages by controlling the power load. A new study values those advantages in the billions of dollars and it would enable the grid to take better advantage of renewable energy. The Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory published the study this month in Environmental Research Letters in which they use California as an example. They wrote:

    “In this study, we forecast the significant grid challenges that arise as more renewables are deployed, specifically the increasing daytime over-generation, increasing evening peaks, and increasing up-ramp and down-ramps. We show that EVs with only V1G capability provide renewables integration capability equivalent to 1.0 GW of stationary storage, a large fraction of the 1.3 GW Storage Mandate, but at a small fraction of the cost. With some vehicles being V2G capable by 2025, vehicles provide renewables integration capability far exceeding that of the Storage Mandate during critical days.”

    What they called ‘V1G’ is simply the capacity to control when an electric vehicle is charging in order to avoid peak demand time and stabilize the load. BMW has several pilot programs working on the concept and it expanded one of them with PG&E in California in 2016 after a successful first phase. They have also been looking at scenarios where on top of controlling when EVs charge, the EVs can also send back some of their energy into the grid through what is called ‘vehicle-to-grid’ or V2G.

    In the study, they found that using the technology on California’s growing fleet of electric vehicles would be “the equivalent of $12.8–$15.4 billion in stationary storage investment.” Currently, there are not many electric cars equipped with V2G capabilities. The most popular EV with the technology is the new Nissan Leaf.

    Tesla has been talking about the technology for a while, but they seem to have walked away from it and instead focused on stationary energy storage systems optimized for daily cycling. While not everyone is on board with V2G, the study highlighted that V1G could alone achieve most of the goals of California’s Storage Mandate, which is so far been achieved through residential and utility-scale energy storage projects.
     
    • Informative x 1
    • Love x 1
  9. jgs

    jgs Active Member

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    Yeah, that was interesting. The authors don’t seem to have addressed a potential issue with V2G that doesn’t exist with stationary technologies though, which is that at any moment and without prior notice to, or permission from, the utility, the capacity they were counting on could literally drive away. Of course statistically this isn’t likely to happen most of the time, but anyone with much experience with any kind of stat muxing has learned to fear flash crowd events, let’s say in this case Thanksgiving traffic or a weather emergency. Or heck, an eclipse.
     
  10. nwdiver

    nwdiver Well-Known Member

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    If it's an 'emergency' doesn't that mean there's no grid?
     
    • Funny x 1
  11. jgs

    jgs Active Member

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    No grid means it’s an emergency. Not necessarily vice-versa.
     
    • Like x 1
  12. FlatSix911

    FlatSix911 Porsche 918 Hybrid

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    Hope springs eternal for V2G… Tesla could ‘revisit’ vehicle-to-grid technology, says Elon Musk

    In a tweet last night, Tesla CEO Elon Musk said he was open to revisiting using the technology in Tesla vehicles:
    upload_2018-7-5_10-23-0.png
    It’s not the first time that Tesla has talked about bringing back V2G in its vehicles.

    We previously reported that Tesla has been flirting with the idea of Vehicle-to-Grid with a bi-directional home charging station for a while now. However, during Tesla’s 2016 Shareholders Meeting and the Gigafactory opening, Musk and Tesla CTO JB Straubel threw some cold water on the idea saying that it is not a priority. Later Ben Hill, head of Tesla Energy for EMEA at the time, hinted at some pilot Vehicle-to-Grid projects during a presentation at the Inter Solar Middle East conference in Dubai. He said:

    “There is a lot of pilots [programmes] going around the world right now, the ability… [for] battery systems, which are connected to the grid, whether there[sic] in a vehicle or not, that ability is coming very, very soon.” Almost 2 years later, it still hasn’t materialized, but it looks like Musk is now considering it again.

    Do you think Tesla should bring back the feature? Thank you for voting!
    • Yes 85.58% (2,428 votes)
    • I don't care 10.89% (309 votes)
    • No 3.52% (100 votes)
    • Total Votes: 2,837
    Regardless of V2G, Tesla seems more interested in controllable load and its value as its customer fleet grows. Here’s a slide from a presentation given by Tesla CTO JB Straubel back in 2015:
    [​IMG]
     
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  13. wws

    wws Member

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    At the past couple of Drive Electric events in Cupertino, Nissan has demonstrated a V2H solution via the CHAdeMO port and a "LEAF-To-Home" (Nichicon ZHTP1580R) box. You'd think a Tesla with a CHAdeMO adapter could use the same hardware. Probably just a simple matter of software...
     
  14. nwdiver

    nwdiver Well-Known Member

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    I think that's unlikely... I would imagine that the car has hardware installed to prohibit reverse DC flow....
     
  15. wws

    wws Member

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    That would require some very large diodes. I suspect all the CHAdeMO adapter does is tell the car, via whatever CAN-ish protocol it uses, to close the actuator between the charge port and the battery.
     
    • Like x 2
  16. arg

    arg Supporting Member

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    Hardware to directly prevent it would be hard; software on the other hand would be easy: the car is already monitoring the charging rate, and it could easily respond to a negative charge rate by shutting down the session.
     
    • Helpful x 1
  17. FlatSix911

    FlatSix911 Porsche 918 Hybrid

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    #17 FlatSix911, Nov 30, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2018
    • Informative x 1
  18. skitown

    skitown Member

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    • Funny x 2
  19. Olle

    Olle Member

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    As a LEAF owner, I agree. A five-year-old could have designed a better battery system by just learning a couple basic things about EVs. The most hilarious and mind-boggling thing is that you can't set the charge percentage, so once plugged in, the tiny LEAF battery will quickly go to 100% SOC and stay there. To add insult to injury, there is no thermal management. If used in any type of warm climate or garage, the battery is 100% guaranteed to sit and cook in its most temperature sensitive state most of the time. Imaging plugging the car in and going on vacation for a couple of months it's almost painful to think about.
    Here is the thing though. V2G will help this by momentarily discharging the LEAF, relieving it form its 100% SOC. Maybe that's why they are doing it?
     
    • Informative x 1
    • Like x 1
  20. skitown

    skitown Member

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    That would be the ultimate Rube Goldberg BMS system! Haha
     
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