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V2grid (Vehicle to Grid) and Tesla

If V2grid gear was available, would you install it in your home?


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Sure, but his objections all have to do with the complications powering the grid/house directly from the Tesla battery. If the Tesla battery is only used to trickle-charge a PowerWall at a fixed rate, but doesn't feed its own power through to the grid, all of those objections go away.
I have a Powerwall connected to a 9.8kWh solar system and 2 Teslas. Using my Teslas to "trickle-charge" my Powerwall makes no sense to me. I have plenty of solar power that I am currently using for that purpose. I would not want my cars made more complex and costly just to provide power to my home. The reasons Elon and JB list make sense to me.

In the future as solar installation costs and battery costs continue to fall I think it will become clear that V2H has no future. The few car companies that have demonstrated V2H prototypes are in my opinion doing it for the publicity value not because they think it will ever become a real mass market product. Elon and JB are more realistic and don't indulge in marketing stunts like that.
 
I have a Powerwall connected to a 9.8kWh solar system and 2 Teslas. Using my Teslas to "trickle-charge" my Powerwall makes no sense to me. I have plenty of solar power that I am currently using for that purpose. I would not want my cars made more complex and costly just to provide power to my home. The reasons Elon and JB list make sense to me.

Do your solar panels charge your Powerwall directly, or do they feed to the grid and the grid charges your Powerwall? In other words, if the grid goes down, will your Powerwall still charge from your solar panels? My solar system connects to the grid, not directly to the home; I believe that is a requirement where I live, so my solar panels are useless when the grid goes out. The usefulness of V2H is for when the grid goes down; in a storm etc. (I agree it's pointless when the grid is up.)

In any case, I doubt extracting a trickle charge through the charging port would add much complexity or cost to the car. I would actually be surprised if such a capability doesn't already exist, to allow Tesla to drain/cycle battery packs for testing, without having to remove them from the car.
 
Do your solar panels charge your Powerwall directly, or do they feed to the grid and the grid charges your Powerwall?
My panel output goes directly to the inverter. The Powerwall is only connected to the inverter. The inverter firmware (which was written by SolarEdge AND Tesla) controls whether the Powerwall charges or discharges and whether the solar output goes to the Powerwall, my house, or to the grid. Does that answer your question?

Unlike your system, when the grid goes down my solar panels continue to operate. In addition, with the grid down I can draw from the Powerwall if needed.

I have been thinking about solar on my roof for over 12 years. In the past I believe the CA rules were that when the grid was down your solar had to be shut down, it could not be used to power your house. I always thought that was inane and it was one of the reasons I did not get solar years ago. Now that has changed, and my new solar system automatically powers my house when the grid goes down (of course it can only power a small subset of all the circuits in my main pain, but it will be enough to run my fridge, some house outlets and some lights.

I understand why some people think that V2H is something Tesla should implement. I am only saying that based on what Elon and JB have said multiple times in the past I can see why Tesla is not offering that capability.
 
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In the article below, contrary to all Elon/JB comments this past year, it seems Telsa may be open to Vehicule to grid/home

Tesla Energy executive talks ‘next gen inverter’, hints at upcoming Vehicle-to-Grid capacity for Tesla

Or could this could just be a mis-communication? It really goes against all that have been said lately by Telsa.

it wasn't clear in those words quoted but would be good. Would need to move from NCA to NMC in cars. Perhaps non-performance cars would go to NMC with a surcharge to have V2H two-way transfer. Would need integration into the SolarEdge inverter configuration or new inverters. It would be a great thing. His words sounded like he was just noting that in the industry, some V2G and V2H was being done (ie. Nissan). It would attract other vendors' EV owners to convert to Model 3 if that design allowed for V2H and external inverter options (with and without connection to Solar PV). 60kWh of standby power is huge.
 
I understand that Tesla is not really in favor any more of V2G, mostly due to the chargepoint infrastructure costs and risks in battery degradation. In Europe they work together with a company which uses the connected car for postponed smart charging: Jedlix #ichargesmart - Start charging your EV smart today!
I think you solve most cases already with postponed charging to be honest and this does not require special hardware..
 
I understand that Tesla is not really in favor any more of V2G, mostly due to the chargepoint infrastructure costs and risks in battery degradation. In Europe they work together with a company which uses the connected car for postponed smart charging: Jedlix #ichargesmart - Start charging your EV smart today!
I think you solve most cases already with postponed charging to be honest and this does not require special hardware..

If you ignore battery longevity for a moment and think that if a battery had say 10,000 full cycle lifespan (like LiFEPO4) or up to 18,000 for maybe LTO...

I would say V2G in your home can be used for power failure and also power rate arbitrage thus helping both the grid and the costs associated with buying an EV. A smart grid full of smart 2-way charging is the future. It then can be used as the power source of an off-grid vacation home in the mountains or similar needs. Car have risk while on the road - why not try to use the battery for more utility while it is stationary. Some cars never make it to 50,000 miles before being totaled or whatnot. If that battery could have been used daily for smart-grid services, would be doing a better good for the world.
 
I don't support V2G. It has many engineering problems that all must be solved. And that costs a lot of money
per every V2G household no matter the quantity of V2G units produced annually.

I do support "Pause on Demand" idea. For me, Smart Grid should ask consumers to postpone their high load consumtion.
Be it heating/AC/charging for a period of time until overload/ultra peak has passed. There is very little benefit going beyond
stopping the draw for requested time.
2 EV's that support PoD are better than one vehicle that supports V2G. Additional cost difference is in the order of magnitude.
Actually PoD requires nothing but EVSE or EV that has internet access and controller that support a new command.
Therefore PoD can be used even with 2011 Leafs. And can be used with today's EVSE's with PoD ready vehicle.
 
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If you ignore battery longevity for a moment and think that if a battery had say 10,000 full cycle lifespan (like LiFEPO4) or up to 18,000 for maybe LTO...

I would say V2G in your home can be used for power failure and also power rate arbitrage thus helping both the grid and the costs associated with buying an EV. A smart grid full of smart 2-way charging is the future. It then can be used as the power source of an off-grid vacation home in the mountains or similar needs. Car have risk while on the road - why not try to use the battery for more utility while it is stationary. Some cars never make it to 50,000 miles before being totaled or whatnot. If that battery could have been used daily for smart-grid services, would be doing a better good for the world.

To understand why Tesla isn't focused on V2G just consider that Tesla is trying to do 4 key things:
(1) Make cheap batteries
(2) Make lots of electric vehicles
(3) Make lots of solar panels
(4) Make autonomous vehicles

All of those things work against V2G and in favor of a combination of smart charging and dedicated static storage.
 
I do support "Pause on Demand" idea

Interesting points, thanks. V2G is something that I would like to understand better:

I hadn't thought of PoD in terms of car charging. If I need my car charged by, say, 6AM tomorrow morning the start may well be delayed until 1AM ... and it will still be fully charged in good time.

But what about evening peak household usage? (The example given here in UK is when the adverts start during a popular Soap and 90% of the population gets up and puts the kettle on!). Clearly a 5 or 10 minute "spike" would allow PoD to turn off Fridge / Freezer / AirCon . etc. but what about the next level of "high usage", rather than "spike", that goes on for, say, several hours during the evening? I can see that many/most?? EV recharging could be delayed, but Fridge/AirCon etc. can't be off for several hours, and I thought the promise of V2G was to cover that usage - i.e. avoid requiring (maybe additional) power stations that can provide power over a short period when the sun isn't shining or the wind is blowing ... e.g. when folk get home on a winter's evening and started using Electricity for heating, cooking, lighting, etc.

I agree its an order of magnitude bigger problem to solve, but the "promise", to me, seems to be avoiding building polluting power stations and shifting power-consumption timings. If every car in the land has a battery can't we avoid having a duplicate second set of static storage batteries at the Utility companies?
 
I agree its an order of magnitude bigger problem to solve, but the "promise", to me, seems to be avoiding building polluting power stations and shifting power-consumption timings. If every car in the land has a battery can't we avoid having a duplicate second set of static storage batteries at the Utility companies?
When the power company puts a true price on Grid Services, as they're called, and there is a well established communication method, then V2G could make sense for people to hook up their car to help manage transient loads during the evening peak period. The short duration pulses of energy the car will be putting into the grid could easily be recharged during the early morning low demand dip. However, there may be a significant cost difference between having small grid inverters connected to cars versus large inverters in utility stationary storage systems. When batteries get cheap enough, this difference in inverter cost may tip the scales away from V2G being practical. However, if people put a high enough value on the backup power case (car powers the house when the grid is down) then V2G could remain practical.
 
No, not really. We seem to get several a year for a few minutes, other than that its normally someone with a digger went through an underground cable, or the results of a storm. We are rural here, so some people can be off for several days after a storm, but it's only once or twice a decade to have something that severe, and I would guess that most people get their power back within 24 hours.

The power itself is reliable. We have a well developed National Grid, so we can move generated power around the country (and we also have a cable under the Channel to France - they are an hour different to us, so I presume we send them some at their peak, and vice versa.
 
When the power company puts a true price on Grid Services, as they're called, and there is a well established communication method, then V2G could make sense for people to hook up their car to help manage transient loads during the evening peak period. The short duration pulses of energy the car will be putting into the grid could easily be recharged during the early morning low demand dip. However, there may be a significant cost difference between having small grid inverters connected to cars versus large inverters in utility stationary storage systems. When batteries get cheap enough, this difference in inverter cost may tip the scales away from V2G being practical. However, if people put a high enough value on the backup power case (car powers the house when the grid is down) then V2G could remain practical.
I wonder if the higher cost smaller inverters systems could cross a price point at a higher Grid Services rate for that function than the larger systems where it would still make sense for the utility (or other connected user) to pay for a higher bid, for times of day when that is needed even at a higher cost, even though usually the lower cost Grid Services facilities would be used in less critical times of days and load levels. This would allow smaller more expensive systems to still sell services at a cost that is reasonable to them, put less wear and tear on them, still be economical for the users, and be a backup for more extreme situations.

I feel like it doesn't quite fit the bill per what you said (except on extreme load days): the capacity of the (aggregate) home Vehicle2Grid systems would far outstrip their price point usefulness to the services users. If I had 3-5 hours, I could hunt down the likely cost of battery degradation in a V2G system, the car depreciation, the interver costs and losses, the likely costs for running utility level storage, etc.., and come up with some numbers, and answer that question.
 
Interesting points, thanks. V2G is something that I would like to understand better:

I hadn't thought of PoD in terms of car charging. If I need my car charged by, say, 6AM tomorrow morning the start may well be delayed until 1AM ... and it will still be fully charged in good time.

But what about evening peak household usage? (The example given here in UK is when the adverts start during a popular Soap and 90% of the population gets up and puts the kettle on!). Clearly a 5 or 10 minute "spike" would allow PoD to turn off Fridge / Freezer / AirCon . etc. but what about the next level of "high usage", rather than "spike", that goes on for, say, several hours during the evening? I can see that many/most?? EV recharging could be delayed, but Fridge/AirCon etc. can't be off for several hours, and I thought the promise of V2G was to cover that usage - i.e. avoid requiring (maybe additional) power stations that can provide power over a short period when the sun isn't shining or the wind is blowing ... e.g. when folk get home on a winter's evening and started using Electricity for heating, cooking, lighting, etc.

I agree its an order of magnitude bigger problem to solve, but the "promise", to me, seems to be avoiding building polluting power stations and shifting power-consumption timings. If every car in the land has a battery can't we avoid having a duplicate second set of static storage batteries at the Utility companies?
Fridge can be PoD for 30 minutes, freezer for 2-3 hours.
There are only few high power appliances at homes. Washers/dryers, heating air, heating water, EV's. All those can be planned ahead/delayed even without PoD, though with lots of manual labor. Many devices nowadays have timers. Even kettles.
V2G gives extremely little help few minutes per day. It's 2017. V2G is non-existent. And grid is fine. In 2019, if there will be no V2G, grid will be still fine. Same in 2022. PoD, while costing nothing (compared to V2G - thousands per house), helps considerably. With years, kettle, washing and heating demand will not rise (actually it is slowly going down, LEDs, heat pumps etc). But EV charging will spike dramatically.
Therefore there is no need to deal with things that work and deal with new load that actually might strain the system. The bigger the overall daily load, the smaller part will the kettle play in the big picture. We definitely need to add some power production when EV's take over, even though most of the charging will happen at night and possibly even with grid PoD instructions.

V2G will not reduce annual energy production, actually, it will make it worse.
Idea is not to grind down the peaks but to fill the gaps. PoD does the job.
It's pointless to remove the peaking moments as we might find ourselves drawing more energy during the night.
daily-demand-copyright-2011-national-grid-plc-all-rights-reserved.jpg


This is UK graph. What will happen if we replace all vehicles with electric ones.
30 million vehicles, all juicing up at modest 3kW rate, will add draw of 90GW. On average each vehicle will require 2-5 hours of charge time per 24h. We have around 6 hours of off peak period. So all odd EV-s charge first then all even charge later. This will add only 45GW load during the whole night.
We still can't fit on this graph.
Like I said, not possible to shave off any peaks.
 
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I think there will be regional differences that will drive solutions. In California my Tesla already has Pause on Demand. It is enabled through a pilot program call Ohmconnect. I connect the Tesla to the IoT which connects to OhmConnect. When there is an Ohmhour my Tesla won't charge. An Ohmhour is when there is a peaker running and they generally happen somewhere between 5pm and 9pm a couple times a week. I get notices which can trigger things such as IoT devices and switches.

Since my EV charging is scheduled from 11pm to 8am my EVs don't contribute but I have several Schneider switches that turn off refrigerators during an Ohmhour. I have tried to find a way to trigger my inverter to take my critual loads panel off the grid during these times. I have not found an automatic trigger and occasionally manually log on remotely and schedule the inverter to take that load off grid for an hour. I get a 24 hour notice and several reminders so it I can often make it happen.
 
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We still can't fit on this graph.

Couple of things I don't properly understand [i.e. instances where V2G looks good to me, but perhaps is not good in practice?]

Your graph seems to have a decent "trough" from 21:00 - 06:00 - seems like a good time to charge EVs ? (Off Peak here is midnight to 7 AM, so perhaps worth delaying EV charging until midnight)

Also, your graph has a spike, in Winter, from 15:30 - 20:00 that, and any sudden high-demand spikes e.g. when the ball game ends are what I feel that V2G could help with, instead of spinning up gas-turbine generators for very short duration needs.

Maybe just sticking a whole bunch of Tesla static-batteries on the Grid would be a better solution? but there will be at least as much? battery-capacity sitting around in EVs by then.