V2grid (Vehicle to Grid) and Tesla

[bonaire]

Just stating that doesn't make it true as well.

If I had a generator that I hardly need, I would keep it without fuel and oil. I would not store fuel at all (nearest gas station 4 minutes of driving). Also I would have a bottle of fresh oil waiting next to generator.
ICE engines do not require periodic running to "keep them in good operating condition". Fossil generator is just a small ICE engine.
Those generators come out factory and often stay on shelves for 5-10 years before they are sold and ran for the first time.
Same with lawn mowers etc.

PS: Every Nissan Leaf can run V2H device. But zero have it.

V2H actually is a thing in Japan. Nissan Leafs were used for those. Also, Generac generators perform monthly (?) running of the ICE engine to basically keep it "healthy" (a few minutes only).

 

[arnis]

Bad design by Generac. Running ICE without removing oil moisture is even worse than not running it at all.
Those who specialize for vehicle preservation know that. DO NOT run your car for few minutes.

If V2H is "actually a thing" then it would be easy to find few dozen pictures of different installations at homes in Japan.

Also, just get this for emergency and keep it in a closet for 5 years or so until you need it:

 

[cusetownusa]

Their target market may not be what I see in my world. However, I have multiple neighbors who have generators who fire-up when the power goes out - you can hear it walking outside if the grid (rarely) goes down. People pay $10k or more for this per house. It doesn't add value to the house for re-sale by much at all. Think of people living in rural America. They have $3k water conditioners, $2k water pumps, self-sufficient water and septic. Losing power means losing water pressure and everything else. A V2G solution that takes hold - say in the area of pickup trucks which have 75-100kWh on board is a solid solution. And, for families with multiple EVs, it gets even more intelligent longer-term. Tesla or GM or Ford or whomever - the people who do this have the ability to reach rural and suburban homeowners who have not even considered an EV yet. This can push those sales over the top to complete when the value-add is saving the costs of a $10k genset for their house. Just plug your house into your car/truck and you're not losing anything when a tree takes out a power-line nearby. And when you move, you bring your generator with you. When you pull a trailer to a remote camping area, you have power on board with the vehicle. Etc. Lots of use-cases that don't fit typical Palo Alto community ideals.

I've been watching the EV space since 2009 (when GM was designing the Volt, Fisker was doing Karma and thinking of using a factory in Delaware to make their Atlantic). In the next decades, when consumers start switching to EVs, more will be looking for the value-add reasons to do so. This is an area of standing out among the crowd. If GM or VW does it first, I have to believe Tesla can follow especially with their already-integrated logic of the powerwalls that work with Solar Edge inverters. Solar Edge may themselves be the ones to take the lead here on the inverter-side with planning with electrical regulators to form the standards to do this.

I couldn't agree more. As someone who is thinking of installing a gas backup generator, I would be ecstatic if Tesla provided a V2G solution to power my house in the event I lose power for a few hours.

 

[h2ofun]

Everything You Need to Know About V2G I Enel X

 

[cusetownusa]

I couldn't agree more. As someone who is thinking of installing a gas backup generator, I would be ecstatic if Tesla provided a V2G solution to power my house in the event I lose power for a few hours.

I am quoting my own post because after more reading on this topic i think i have my terminology wrong. When I said I would like V2G capability I think I meant just Vehicle to House. V2G would be nice but I would prefer to at least be able to power my house for a few ours if needed. This would save me from needing to buy a gas generator and make a Tesla purchase that much easier to justify.

 

[h2ofun]

I am quoting my own post because after more reading on this topic i think i have my terminology wrong. When I said I would like V2G capability I think I meant just Vehicle to House. V2G would be nice but I would prefer to at least be able to power my house for a few ours if needed. This would save me from needing to buy a gas generator and make a Tesla purchase that much easier to justify.

Good point. I would never consider a EV as a car. But, if you let me use it for a home battery backup, well, then I might change my mind.
Would rather put money in a car home backup battery than a PW.

 

[miimura]

Did tesla not have this in their first car and no one used it?

This was stated at Battery Day, but every comment I saw in the Roadster sub-forum didn't know what they were talking about.

Drew Baglino also made comments about the European cars being ready for V2G, while North American cars were not. However, he was not clear what he meant. I think he may be referring to the fact that the European charge port has full 3-phase plus Neutral connections while North American cars do not have all the connections required to support North American 240V split phase power. There is no Neutral pin on the charge port, just L1/L2/Gnd. It would require an autotransformer to be installed at the house in addition to a transfer/disconnect switch in order to support off-grid home operation.

 

[bonaire]

I am quoting my own post because after more reading on this topic i think i have my terminology wrong. When I said I would like V2G capability I think I meant just Vehicle to House. V2G would be nice but I would prefer to at least be able to power my house for a few ours if needed. This would save me from needing to buy a gas generator and make a Tesla purchase that much easier to justify.

The Complete Picture of V2H/V2G.

You're plugged in at home (or even work) and have a software agreement to allow output of say 2KW for 10kWh if the grid needs it on peak summer days. Pays .60/kWh to dump up to 10kWh per day. This buys you lunch on a peak load day. Such agreements would make V2G interesting to some who are trying to get Peaker Plants diminished. Then you're at home. Same thing - if you can backfeed at similar numbers while at home, you are reducing grid load when the signal is sent out. if you are in rolling black-out country of California but do have Solar PV, you're islanded and doing fine during the outages, even without a powerwall expense. Thing is, SGIP money was pretty good for some time for wall installs, so the payback is pretty good. And for those who are not wanting to drive an ICE but do want home standby but also don't want the costs of adding powerwalls, having an EV to do the work of the battery with larger capacity is even better.

I think Tesla is stuck unable to do this until they offer LFP batteries in the cars - which will allow far more charge cycles and capability to work as V2G and V2H.

 

[bonaire]

This was stated at Battery Day, but every comment I saw in the Roadster sub-forum didn't know what they were talking about.

Drew Baglino also made comments about the European cars being ready for V2G, while North American cars were not. However, he was not clear what he meant. I think he may be referring to the fact that the European charge port has full 3-phase plus Neutral connections while North American cars do not have all the connections required to support North American 240V split phase power. There is no Neutral pin on the charge port, just L1/L2/Gnd. It would require an autotransformer to be installed at the house in addition to a transfer/disconnect switch in order to support off-grid home operation.

When the charger port design (ie. the Tesla plug) was designed, forethought for this era should have been done. Now, well maybe they will redesign something for N.America and consider doing something with a refresh. Then everyone can upgrade to new cars (great for sales numbers) which can work with V2G and V2H.

 

[cusetownusa]

The Complete Picture of V2H/V2G.

You're plugged in at home (or even work) and have a software agreement to allow output of say 2KW for 10kWh if the grid needs it on peak summer days. Pays .60/kWh to dump up to 10kWh per day. This buys you lunch on a peak load day. Such agreements would make V2G interesting to some who are trying to get Peaker Plants diminished. Then you're at home. Same thing - if you can backfeed at similar numbers while at home, you are reducing grid load when the signal is sent out. if you are in rolling black-out country of California but do have Solar PV, you're islanded and doing fine during the outages, even without a powerwall expense. Thing is, SGIP money was pretty good for some time for wall installs, so the payback is pretty good. And for those who are not wanting to drive an ICE but do want home standby but also don't want the costs of adding powerwalls, having an EV to do the work of the battery with larger capacity is even better.

I think Tesla is stuck unable to do this until they offer LFP batteries in the cars - which will allow far more charge cycles and capability to work as V2G and V2H.

Honestly, I would only need the capabilities to power my house for about an hour once or twice a year. Supplying the grid constantly and degrading my battery is of no interest to me, at least with todays battery technology.

 

[miimura]

When the charger port design (ie. the Tesla plug) was designed, forethought for this era should have been done. Now, well maybe they will redesign something for N.America and consider doing something with a refresh. Then everyone can upgrade to new cars (great for sales numbers) which can work with V2G and V2H.

The autotransformer is really not a big deal. Certainly not worth changing the charge port for eliminating it.

 

[h2ofun]

Honestly, I would only need the capabilities to power my house for about an hour once or twice a year. Supplying the grid constantly and degrading my battery is of no interest to me, at least with todays battery technology.

Totally agree. I would only want for a power outage. So many seem hung up on the ability to try and scam the system by selling back energy for more than they bought it for.

 

[bonaire]

Totally agree. I would only want for a power outage. So many seem hung up on the ability to try and scam the system by selling back energy for more than they bought it for.

In terms of peak load power - it's helpful. In Australia, Tesla built the big battery - why? The payments upon peak demand periods are huge. Up to $3000 AUD per MWh delivered. That's enormous as in the USA, during regular times, it is $20 USD per MWh wholesale. In the PJM grid segment, during summer peak loads on afternoons, the regional MWh pricing can jump to 300-400 dollars. That's .30-.40/kWh paid to big generator plants during those periods. (Locational Marginal Pricing) That is what your utility pays the big generators during peak loads. In their best interest to get you to conserve or help out.

Now, if the peak load regulators could call on your car to dump 4kWh and pay you say .50 or .60/kWh, why not? It's a smart grid and we can be smart about where power comes from. Charge at night during the lull and sell a bit back when demand is important. Multiply by millions and peaker plants are done. No need to keep them spinning on standby.

 

[nwdiver]

Totally agree. I would only want for a power outage. So many seem hung up on the ability to try and scam the system by selling back energy for more than they bought it for.

.... that's not 'scamming the system'... that's balancing supply and demand. One of the biggest challenges for a utility.

As @bonaire points out there are regular periods on the grid where surges in demand can easily drive costs to absurd levels because it takes precious minutes for FF plants to respond. If your car is able to quickly pump kW into the grid for $0.50/kWh instead of the peaker that's gonna charge $2/kWh then everyone wins.

 

[bonaire]

.... that's not 'scamming the system'... that's balancing supply and demand. One of the biggest challenges for a utility.

As @bonaire points out there are regular periods on the grid where surges in demand can easily drive costs to absurd levels because it takes precious minutes for FF plants to respond. If your car is able to quickly pump kW into the grid for $0.50/kWh instead of the peaker that's gonna charge $2/kWh then everyone wins.

Think of the change going from "bare wire" distribution firms to "smart distribution" firms who regulate individual units spread out in millions of locations. It's great on my whiteboard - but what will it take? PJM Region has one utility called PECO, I think it's in Penn. There, PECO got $500 Million or more from the Federal Government to install smart meters through their region. What happened? One supplier's meters caught fire! But in the end, they right now are not even offering any sort of power plans for time of use yet. All this money spent to just move one small step forward. Having signals sent to cars at the ready to perform V2G in a safe and widespread format is decades away in today's commonplace slow-to-move regulated environment. It'll happen in Europe or Asia first.

Saving money of a distribution entity like a power company is not all that important - because rate-payers will pay the excess costs. Do they care if they have to go to the PUC and ask for a penny/kWh more just to make up for costs? No. They'll do that because adding a penny to a multiplier in a billing system is far easier than developing a Smart Grid signaling system to encourage V2G "sharing" of the work.

We need legislators capable of choosing the harder solution which is better for the future of the environment and fuel usage versus the ease of changing a billing system and forcing consumers to pay-up. Since we're all buying cars anyway every year, and if the world is going Electric, I think we have to encourage V2G solutioning and that also means V2H supplementation rather than not really get on board. Your car is a power plant. Teslas have up to 100kWh on board. that is a lot of power. Enough for most residential homes for five days.

 

[Buckminster]

Vehicle-to-everything - Wikipedia
Not sure it is needed but bound to happen at some point.

 

[Buckminster]

When FSD is mastered, you dont really need V2V. When every car follow the speed limits and traffic rules - they already know what other cars will do. With FSD in all cars, they will in addition react the same way to identical situation and won't really need to talk to each other. It will be efficient and smooth anyway.

We humans dont yell at each other to make traffic flow? Well, some do.. but that normally doesnt help that much.

Only reason to connect cars even further, are if we have too limited space on the roads and need to pack cars bumper to bumper. That wont happen until humans are banned, and all cars run by the same FSD rules.

Mostly agree, but what I can see is avoiding those hundred car pileups where there is less time for stopping than the processing speed allows just on vision plus radar. There's also the potential for emergency vehicle clearance (where the emergency vehicle sends a signal which could be detected before it comes into visual range (or visual range is blocked by other vehicles). It doesn't take too much imagination to think of other situations where it could be useful (e.g. the car in front is going very slow, why?).

V2V might have advantages negotiating things like merges in a system where all vehicles have it. E.g. Boring tunnels.

agree that it won’t have any advantages on surface streets until almost all vehicles have it.

 

[powertoold]

V2V is pointless for safety, even if every car has it. It's pointless for everything except for maybe allowing passengers inside to have an intercom to another driverless car. But even in this case, we can always have the car connect to a central server that relays the information to the nearby car.

To advocate v2v, you'd have to come up with unique circumstances where it'd be more advantageous than connecting to a central server.

 

[jjrandorin]

Vehicle-to-everything - Wikipedia
Not sure it is needed but bound to happen at some point.

Note to OP. there is an existing thread on V2G / V2H here:

V2grid (Vehicle to Grid) and Tesla

I requested a mod for this section merge your post into that existing thread.

 

[arnis]

Honestly, I would only need the capabilities to power my house for about an hour once or twice a year.

And why getting high quality pure sine wave 2kW (4kW peak) converter not suitable for THIS specific task?
It costs around 300 bucks. And adding quick connection plug would simplify usage and adds around 10% to the price.
Also you can carry that inverter in the frunk in case you need it NOT at home.

A generator - check
No pollution - check
Something else?