I believe you are mis-informed. The Tesla Powerwall 2.0 with integrated inverter does not use a pack voltage anywhere near vehicle pack voltages. I believe it is less than 60VDC like most other battery inverters so that it can avoid special regulatory requirements for HVDC.
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V2grid (Vehicle to Grid) and Tesla
- Thread starter ThosEM
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Here is a company that is offering a residential bidirectional charger. At an estimated price of $4,000 it will be interesting to see how the market accepts it. It is not clear what other equipment would be needed for it to actually power the home.
Wallbox Launches In US & China, Adds Residential Bi-Directional DC Fast Charger | CleanTechnica
Wallbox Launches In US & China, Adds Residential Bi-Directional DC Fast Charger | CleanTechnica
@arnis (and others)..
My wife works from home and has a Leaf as her daily driver. Her car doesn’t leave the garage but once a day for ~30 minutes and doesn’t get driven even 50 miles a week. Her car already has chademo as standard, and her cars battery capacity is essentially the same as $24,000 worth of powerwalls.
Additionally, our 10.2kW solar system produces 100% of our power needs for the house, and on average an extra 5-10kW per day for our cars/commuting. Our neighborhood rarely loses power, not even once a year.
We do live in a hurricane-prone area though, and the options for backup power in case a big one hits and we do lose power for several days are limited to a $4000+ gas/propane home generator, Powerwall for $8K+, or a 2 way chademo evse. If of the 4 opptions (including doing nothing) I would *much* rather spend $5K on a two-way charging system using chademo that could use my wife’s car as a battery backup for our house instead of spending $XK on any other solution.
It certainly isn’t a fool-proof system and yes, I imagine it will shorten the life cycle of batteries a bit if used and depleted everyday. But realistically speaking, there are plenty of real-world applications where this kind of device/connectivity could be extremely useful for people all around the country.
My wife works from home and has a Leaf as her daily driver. Her car doesn’t leave the garage but once a day for ~30 minutes and doesn’t get driven even 50 miles a week. Her car already has chademo as standard, and her cars battery capacity is essentially the same as $24,000 worth of powerwalls.
Additionally, our 10.2kW solar system produces 100% of our power needs for the house, and on average an extra 5-10kW per day for our cars/commuting. Our neighborhood rarely loses power, not even once a year.
We do live in a hurricane-prone area though, and the options for backup power in case a big one hits and we do lose power for several days are limited to a $4000+ gas/propane home generator, Powerwall for $8K+, or a 2 way chademo evse. If of the 4 opptions (including doing nothing) I would *much* rather spend $5K on a two-way charging system using chademo that could use my wife’s car as a battery backup for our house instead of spending $XK on any other solution.
It certainly isn’t a fool-proof system and yes, I imagine it will shorten the life cycle of batteries a bit if used and depleted everyday. But realistically speaking, there are plenty of real-world applications where this kind of device/connectivity could be extremely useful for people all around the country.
This is pretty much my perspective. I don't have an EV (yet) but it's a strong consideration for me as a Powerwall owner to be able to extend the duration of the backup in an outage with the EV battery. Here in the pacific northwest our concern is earthquakes and a sufficient one that would knock out power will almost assuredly interrupt natural gas and gasoline supplies. Powerwall + EV storage + PV system = lots of confidence that we'd be ok during an extended emergency.
I don't need or want the ability to provide power back to the grid today from my car. What I do want is the extra capacity should there be an extended outage, for whatever reason, and to do so I need a lot more than the 13.5kwh Powerwall that sits unused 99% of the time. Using an EV as both transportation and another storage option for my home during off grid operation would be perfect.
Oh yes, I've watched that thread with great interest. This thread though is about an out-of-the-box solution and real support from EV companies.
Buckminster
Well-Known Member
I work from home. I purchased my 2018 Model S P100D new, under 50 miles on it, on the last day of 2018. Today, it only has ~7k miles on it and virtually zero battery degradation; and I love the vehicle, too.
That said, it absolutely kills me to have 2 Powerwalls [which were pretty pricey] sitting in my garage -- don't get me wrong, they're gorgeous -- but they're sitting directly next to my 100kWh battery [the Model S] that only gets light usage a few times a week, and that I currently only really even charge once every 7-10 days!
I wouldn't want to over-use & thrash the Model S battery with V2G -- but even just getting an additional 15-30kWh to use as a "buffer" (ie staying in the 40-70% charge range), and/or for emergencies/outage backup purposes... and, for only $4k?! Seems almost like a no-brainer to me...
That said, it absolutely kills me to have 2 Powerwalls [which were pretty pricey] sitting in my garage -- don't get me wrong, they're gorgeous -- but they're sitting directly next to my 100kWh battery [the Model S] that only gets light usage a few times a week, and that I currently only really even charge once every 7-10 days!
I wouldn't want to over-use & thrash the Model S battery with V2G -- but even just getting an additional 15-30kWh to use as a "buffer" (ie staying in the 40-70% charge range), and/or for emergencies/outage backup purposes... and, for only $4k?! Seems almost like a no-brainer to me...
gcsutton
Member
Exactly. Its a resource that is not being used to its full potential.
Schumpeter
MS 90D owner. EV and renewable energy enthusiast!
I agree that the impact on the battery can be limited when applying strict conditions. You could even reduce idle time at a high SoC. I only wonder what discharging might do to other elements like onboard relays and such in terms of wearing them out when charging/discharging a lot. Secondly I also wonder the costs to enable this functinality. A bidrectional onboard charger should probably be not much more expensive...
Relays and contactors are only activated when there is zero current, so there is no wear from arcing. The life is purely cycle life and heat aging due to high current carrying. Any V2X usage would be very lower power compared to accelerating the car. Pre-charge circuits also eliminate arcing.
I don't see how Tesla can get through the next 2-3 years without either "hyping" something of future V2H/V2G solutions or actually doing it. First, it's not hard to do. Second, it adds so much value to vehicles that it is a no-brainer. Third, it starts to lean away from using fuels-powered home generators for standby and into the 21st century smart grid solutions that we are due.
Tesla has a limited bandwidth for projects to tackle. They already have so much on their plate to execute the roadmap items that we know about, much less the ones we don't know about. Tesla can easily ignore V2X for the foreseeable future with little ill effect. Their alternative, Powerwalls have so much order backlog that they can't keep up. It makes more financial sense for them to follow that route than V2H emergency power solutions. CyberTruck may be the exception since it will have power out for tools, etc.
This is theoretical reason? Because AFAIK those things are EXTREMELY rare (less than .1%). And even if they are there, they are not being used (less than .1% of annual energy).
So it is pretty much impossible to lean away from that usage. As there is none. Likely burning a drop of fossil fuel per year is cleaner than even transporting V2X installation team to the construction site (home). Not to mention installing ANYTHING that is made out of plastic parts. Like Elon says: "best part is no part".
V2X has to has a better reason than "fictional generator replacement". That is not going to cut it and Elon knows that.
If you install a fossil fueled generator, it has to run periodically in order to remain in good operating condition. So, saying that the truck roll to install a different solution has a greater GHG impact is not true.
I agree that Tesla is not sufficiently motivated to provide a V2X solution for their cars.
Just stating that doesn't make it true as well.
If I had a generator that I hardly need, I would keep it without fuel and oil. I would not store fuel at all (nearest gas station 4 minutes of driving). Also I would have a bottle of fresh oil waiting next to generator.
ICE engines do not require periodic running to "keep them in good operating condition". Fossil generator is just a small ICE engine.
Those generators come out factory and often stay on shelves for 5-10 years before they are sold and ran for the first time.
Same with lawn mowers etc.
PS: Every Nissan Leaf can run V2H device. But zero have it.
Their target market may not be what I see in my world. However, I have multiple neighbors who have generators who fire-up when the power goes out - you can hear it walking outside if the grid (rarely) goes down. People pay $10k or more for this per house. It doesn't add value to the house for re-sale by much at all. Think of people living in rural America. They have $3k water conditioners, $2k water pumps, self-sufficient water and septic. Losing power means losing water pressure and everything else. A V2G solution that takes hold - say in the area of pickup trucks which have 75-100kWh on board is a solid solution. And, for families with multiple EVs, it gets even more intelligent longer-term. Tesla or GM or Ford or whomever - the people who do this have the ability to reach rural and suburban homeowners who have not even considered an EV yet. This can push those sales over the top to complete when the value-add is saving the costs of a $10k genset for their house. Just plug your house into your car/truck and you're not losing anything when a tree takes out a power-line nearby. And when you move, you bring your generator with you. When you pull a trailer to a remote camping area, you have power on board with the vehicle. Etc. Lots of use-cases that don't fit typical Palo Alto community ideals.
I've been watching the EV space since 2009 (when GM was designing the Volt, Fisker was doing Karma and thinking of using a factory in Delaware to make their Atlantic). In the next decades, when consumers start switching to EVs, more will be looking for the value-add reasons to do so. This is an area of standing out among the crowd. If GM or VW does it first, I have to believe Tesla can follow especially with their already-integrated logic of the powerwalls that work with Solar Edge inverters. Solar Edge may themselves be the ones to take the lead here on the inverter-side with planning with electrical regulators to form the standards to do this.
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