V3 Supercharger Revealed 250kW

[tga]

A full V3 station will have almost 4x the demand of a similar full V2. I wonder if they finally added batteries to the new V3 sites for demand management. Has anyone seen any details of what's behind the fence? I haven't found anything yet.

I was always a wee bit bitter that Tesla was lazy and didn't give the 75 pack as high a nominal pack voltage as it could have. Smaller modules but more of them, vs fewer modules and fewer in series. Strictly a cost savings measure.

Not really. More cells in series vs parallel means higher voltage, but correspondingly lower charge current. Maybe a little better due to lower resistive losses at lower current, but probably not enough to really matter.

Further, a 20 stall V3 station will require a 20MW feed! That's a pretty substantial substation, and they will have be in a location where local power distribution can support it. Because of load sharing and the lower output, the V2 twenty stall station only requires 5MW - which is far more reasonable.

Huh? 20 stalls * 250kW/stall = 5MW, not 20. 20 stalls * 1 rack/2 stalls * 145kW/rack = 1.45MW, not 5MW.

Looks like they have kept the existing Tesla plug in NA. I wonder if they can push 145kW in the EU plug too. Does anyone have information on that?

When I first saw the Model 3 on SC v3, I immediately thought: “I must trade my S 100D for it”. Then I realized that it will be a long time until v3 sites are brought up on the trans-european route that I take 3-4 times a year.

Originally the numbers quoted were 120kw, then 132kw. Those sites were 12 original S chargers in a rack. 4 sets of 3 wired L-N in a 277/480 wye. Each bank of 3 can be individually switched between pedestals. 12 * 40A * 277V = 133kW. Not sure what/when hardware change happened to get to 145kW

 

[Oldschool496]

that it will be a long time until v3 sites

Precisely, the car you have is awesome, its king of the road and trading it in, well TM3 is a great car, smaller and you would notice some real inherent differences right away, that frankly you might not like. Even here in the states v3 sites will also be slow to implementation. For sure will help make room at v2 for the earlier players.

 

[rypalmer]

Not really. More cells in series vs parallel means higher voltage, but correspondingly lower charge current. Maybe a little better due to lower resistive losses at lower current, but probably not enough to really matter.

Partially correct. It translates to a lower rate of charge for current-limited sessions such as at any CHAdeMO station. But you're right to say this doesn't make a huge difference. I just expected better innovation from Tesla on the matter.

 

[CyberShy]

I predict a lot of “my car doesn’t charge at 250kw” complaint threads.

 

[dhanson865]

I wonder if for the states where they charge per minute if they will add a third tier to the pricing structure, as surely 250kW charging has to cost Tesla more than 120kW charging.

I don't think so because

Demand charges are reduced with V3 chargers by

• increased efficiency
• powerpack battery buffering demand
• solar PV providing electricity from somewhere other than the grid

V3 locations may or may not have both powerpack and solar but they can have one without having the other or they can have both. Even if they have neither the efficiency of the supercharger cabinet still saves them several percent.

Keep in mind the new software will keep your car in the higher tier longer (proportionately, not necessarily in minutes) without adding a 3rd tier. In other words the 2 existing tiers cover that concern as is.

Supercharging FAQ confirms

> Will current PPU pricing and idle fee charges change at V3 Supercharger stations?
> No. Supercharger PPU and idle fee charges will remain unchanged at this time.

 

[dhanson865]

The label on a V2 transformer says 135kW. Is 145kW a typo? Either way, it's peak and not much long-term wise.

I believe both 135 and 145 versions exist. If I'm thinking right the list of supercharger types includes

* 90 KW peak stations (gen 1)
* 120 KW peak stations (gen 1 revised)
* 135 KW stations that allow the 120KW peak but support the pair better. (gen 2)
* 145 KW stations that allow the 120KW peak but support the pair better. (gen 2 revised)
* 72 KW urban stations (gen 2)
* 250 KW Gen 3 stations

I don't know if any Gen 1 stations are still in use or how many are left if they are.

And the 120KW peak gets changed to supercharger limit if the car has new enough firmware. Still If there is a V7 or V8 holdout they'll be limited to the slower charge speeds.

 

[MP3Mike]

Demand charges are reduced with V3 chargers by

• increased efficiency
• powerpack battery buffering demand
• solar PV providing electricity from somewhere other than the grid

V3 locations may or may not have both powerpack and solar but they can have one without having the other or they can have both. Even if they have neither the efficiency of the supercharger cabinet still saves them several percent. Even if they have neither the efficiency of the supercharger cabinet still saves them several percent.

I doubt that the increased efficiency does anything to decrease demand charges.

Take two 8 stall sites that are full with thirsty cars:

• V2 has a peak demand of 580kW
• V3 has a peak demand of 2,000kW.

That is a peak demand that is a almost 3.5x larger. Say that because the V3 site moves cars through twice as fast you only have 4 stalls full at a time. That still makes your peak 1,000kW vs. 580kW.

You would have to have a lot of batteries and/or storage to bring that back down to, or lower, than the peak demand of the V2 site. And even if it does that reduces the demand charge but now you have a lot of capital expenses in batteries/solar that you have to pay for.

Supercharging FAQ confirms

> Will current PPU pricing and idle fee charges change at V3 Supercharger stations?
> No. Supercharger PPU and idle fee charges will remain unchanged at this time.

But what exactly does PPU mean?

 

[dhanson865]

But what exactly does PPU mean?

I'm assuming that means Pay Per Use. As opposed to free supercharging for life or free supercharging for a year (or any other free term).

Metered services (also called pay-per-use) is any type of payment structure in which a customer has access to potentially unlimited resources but only pays for what they actually use

 

[scaesare]

I predict a lot of “my car doesn’t charge at 250kw” complaint threads.

"Why my dolphin Leaf broken?"

 

[JohnnyG]

I believe both 135 and 145 versions exist. If I'm thinking right the list of supercharger types includes

* 90 KW peak stations (gen 1)
* 120 KW peak stations (gen 1 revised)
* 135 KW stations that allow the 120KW peak but support the pair better. (gen 2)
* 145 KW stations that allow the 120KW peak but support the pair better. (gen 2 revised)
* 72 KW urban stations (gen 2)
* 250 KW Gen 3 stations

I don't know if any Gen 1 stations are still in use or how many are left if they are.

And the 120KW peak gets changed to supercharger limit if the car has new enough firmware. Still If there is a V7 or V8 holdout they'll be limited to the slower charge speeds.

Do you have any evidentiary data on this? All of the V2 chargers installed in this area in the past 4 - 12 months are spec labelled as max 135kW. I've not seen anything documented anywhere that they revised the design of the V2 to increase the output current.

 

[dhanson865]

Do you have any evidentiary data on this? All of the V2 chargers installed in this area in the past 4 - 12 months are spec labelled as max 135kW. I've not seen anything documented anywhere that they revised the design of the V2 to increase the output current.

Tesla Superchargers Now Capable Of 145 kW or Tesla Superchargers (V2) will get upgraded to 145 kW charge rate, worldwide or Tesla quietly upgraded its Superchargers for faster charging, now capable of 145 kW take your pick (i'm not a fan of electrek)

I'm sure I could find more.

 

[tga]

Partially correct. It translates to a lower rate of charge for current-limited sessions such as at any CHAdeMO station. But you're right to say this doesn't make a huge difference. I just expected better innovation from Tesla on the matter.

Good point. I've charged enough at Chademo's - I should have remembered that.

 

[JohnnyG]

The label on a V2 transformer says 135kW. Is 145kW a typo? Either way, it's peak and not much long-term wise.

... Originally the numbers quoted were 120kw, then 132kw. Those sites were 12 original S chargers in a rack. 4 sets of 3 wired L-N in a 277/480 wye. Each bank of 3 can be individually switched between pedestals. 12 * 40A * 277V = 133kW. Not sure what/when hardware change happened to get to 145kW

The latest V2 cabinets I've seen still have the following specs:
Output Voltage: 50-410 VDC
Output Current: 330 A Continuous

What's even more interesting to me, is the spec limits on the monolith cables at each stall:
Rated Voltage: 410 VDC
Rated Current: 210 A Continuous
Rated Current: 270 A @ 67% (T_=20 min)

This equates to only 86kW Continuous, or 111kW with a duty cycle of 67% (T_=20min).

 

[JohnnyG]

Tesla Superchargers Now Capable Of 145 kW or Tesla Superchargers (V2) will get upgraded to 145 kW charge rate, worldwide or Tesla quietly upgraded its Superchargers for faster charging, now capable of 145 kW take your pick (i'm not a fan of electrek)

I'm sure I could find more.

I see the article referencing the UK ASA claiming they discovered a secret.
And we've all read the announcements that Tesla is going to bump the V2 to 145kW.

I'm referencing your chart stating that the V2 had already been revised to a design spec of 145kW. I'm just curious what the solid evidentiary data is on this. I'm not looking for an argument: just would love to see some hard data. I would have expected the design spec labels on the cabinets that were just installed in the past couple months to have reflected that change.

And yeah, I'm completely with you on the dislike of electrek...

 

[sandpiper]

Huh? 20 stalls * 250kW/stall = 5MW, not 20. 20 stalls * 1 rack/2 stalls * 145kW/rack = 1.45MW, not 5MW.

Doh! Not sure what kindof stupid pills got slipped into my breakfast cereal. Yes, of course.

 

[powaking]

Elon just tweeted.

Elon Musk on Twitter

Latest software improves Tesla Supercharger times by up to 25% for all Tesla S/X/3 worldwide, incl original 2012 Model S. Not splitting power across 2 Supercharger stalls helps all cars up to 50%. Aland Bru on Twitter

 

[camthehombre]

That just says charging time up to 25%, not charge rate/speed unfortunately. So this could be referring simply to preheating the battery. I hope it’s bumped up charge rates, but both his tweet and the blog post aren’t very detailed on how they will improve charge time.

 

[RubberToe]

I predict a lot of “my car doesn’t charge at 250kw” complaint threads.

Maybe fewer than you think...

All the Model 3 owners who were complaining that "they will never buy another Tesla" because Tesla lowered the prices recently may have gone even further and simply sold their cars off at a loss in disgust to wash their hands of the whole "Tesla is always innovating and I simply won't stand for it any longer!" first world problem.

So that group won't be starting any new threads about being disappointed with Model 3 charging. Unless of course they might happen to have a dream that their old Tesla Model 3 (which they sold) was only charging at 247kW versus the guaranteed 250kW, and they wake up in a cold sweat further disgusted with Tesla, and start a thread at 4:20am about how the endless failings of Tesla are even affecting their dreams...

Maybe a couple hundred of these threads, tops...

RT

 

[Blup85]

Does anyone know of pictures of the actual charger box for the V3 Chargers (not just the pedestal). I'd like to see if there are any differences in cabinet/exterior hardware that is recognizable.

 

[supratachophobia]

• Just for Model 3 vehicles after software update for now
• Model S and Model X to follow later – again through software

Again - the "flagship" left behind.

They already have our money....