V3 Supercharging Profiles for Model 3

[Zoomit]

With the public opening of the first V3 Supercharger Station in Fremont, we can now start collecting charge session data to ferret out the ideal charging profiles for the different Model 3 battery configurations. When firmware 2019.12.1.x was released, which allowed 150 kW Supercharging on the updated V2 stations, we were able to determine those profiles in this thread: 150kW Supercharging for Model 3

From early reports, 2019.20.1 will allow 200+ kW power levels at Fremont and later V3 stations, such as Hawthorne, once they come online. This data will allow us to verify Tesla's charging speed claims, but also help us understand the nuances to optimise charge sessions for fast, efficient travel. This is relevant because the battery chemistry as implemented in the Model 3 has a significant taper from 250 kW. The charging rates are also heavily dependent on battery temperature, where 40°C [104°F] appears to be the ideal charging temperature. I expect the fastest charge rates will only be possible under select conditions and we should understand the constraints.

The key data to collect is charging power (kW) and indicated State of Charge (%). It would also be helpful to know the duration of the charge session, if not intermediate times, as well as how hard the car was driven and if On-Route Battery Warmup was used. Of course it is also important to tell us what car configuration you have as the profiles will be different for SR, SR+, MR and LR packs. Send us what you see!

 

[jjrandorin]

I dont have any data for you at all, but just wanted to say that I really enjoy reading your posts on the topic of charging, and say thank you for your pursuit of this information (and sharing what you find with us all).

 

[willow_hiller]

Do we know if 2019.20.X is required to get 200 kW+ on V3? Or is it just that those who have tested V3 so far have been 2019.20.X. I don't believe higher charge rates were in the release notes.

Any California SR+ owners willing to try out V3 and report back? I'm still really curious if/when that ~100 kW cap will be lifted...

 

[peakshaving]

Do we know if 2019.20.X is required to get 200 kW+ on V3? Or is it just that those who have tested V3 so far have been 2019.20.X. I don't believe higher charge rates were in the release notes.

Any California SR+ owners willing to try out V3 and report back? I'm still really curious if/when that ~100 kW cap will be lifted...

I'm on 19.12.1.2 still mulling if I should drive to Fremont and give it a go. I'm seeing 250kW on the maps but that might just be what Tesla's API is returning for all cars.

 

[Zoomit]

I dont have any data for you at all, but just wanted to say that I really enjoy reading your posts on the topic of charging, and say thank you for your pursuit of this information (and sharing what you find with us all).

Glad to hear it's useful, or at least entertaining!

Do we know if 2019.20.X is required to get 200 kW+ on V3? Or is it just that those who have tested V3 so far have been 2019.20.X. I don't believe higher charge rates were in the release notes.

Any California SR+ owners willing to try out V3 and report back? I'm still really curious if/when that ~100 kW cap will be lifted...

I've only seen one report of >150kW on 19.20.1. Higher charger rates were NOT in the release notes, but the cars that got it were primarily from California.

I'm on 19.12.1.2 still mulling if I should drive to Fremont and give it a go. I'm seeing 250kW on the maps but that might just be what Tesla's API is returning for all cars.

I think you're right. I do not expect an SR+ car will be able to charge above ~105kW on 12.1.2 at Fremont or any other SC station. An SR+ car on 19.20.1 might be able to charge above 105kW at any V2 station however.

 

[peakshaving]

I think you're right. I do not expect an SR+ car will be able to charge above ~105kW on 12.1.2 at Fremont or any other SC station. An SR+ car on 19.20.1 might be able to charge above 105kW at any V2 station however.

I'll hold off until I get an update. It'll probably be pushed soon with the SR lock

 

[willow_hiller]

This might already be common knowledge, but someone over on Reddit took a snapshot of the specs on the back of a V3 supercharging station in Fremont: https://i.redd.it/urce8ra3mi331.jpg

 

[willow_hiller]

Another Reddit find. User in Norway has 200 kW rates for CCS mentioned in their 2019.20.1 release notes: 2019.20.1 release notes! : teslamotors

 

[MarcG]

This might already be common knowledge, but someone over on Reddit took a snapshot of the specs on the back of a V3 supercharging station in Fremont: https://i.redd.it/urce8ra3mi331.jpg

Hmm max voltage of 500V and current of 350A only equals 175kW max, not 250..

 

[willow_hiller]

Hmm max voltage of 500V and current of 350A only equals 175kW max, not 250..

Here's the source comment section Fremont's new V3 superchargers 250kw : TeslaLounge

Speculation on whether it's improperly labeled, or there's some sort of trick with peaks and averages.

 

[MarcG]

Here's the source comment section Fremont's new V3 superchargers 250kw : TeslaLounge

Speculation on whether it's improperly labeled, or there's some sort of trick with peaks and averages.

Thanks for the link. As an electrical engineer, I have a hard time believing there are “tricks” to reaching higher peak power from these numbers given they’re DC values. If it was AC then sure, on a 3-phase system you will achieve more power but not with DC. So I’m guessing this is down to mislabeling.

 

[peakshaving]

Thanks for the link. As an electrical engineer, I have a hard time believing there are “tricks” to reaching higher peak power from these numbers given they’re DC values. If it was AC then sure, on a 3-phase system you will achieve more power but not with DC. So I’m guessing this is down to mislabeling.

I was always under the impression that labels like that are for continuous operation rather than instantaneous limits. The CCS adapter they sell in Europe for S/X allow for higher power than the labels on them state when you first start charging.
As shown by Bjorn:

Adapter is rated to 410V and 210A DC (from photos)

 

[Eno Deb]

Hmm max voltage of 500V and current of 350A only equals 175kW max, not 250..

Also interesting that the 350A is supposedly limited to a maximum operating temperature of 35 degree Celsius (for reference, today it's 103 Fahrenheit here in the area, which is about 39 Celsius).

 

[Zoomit]

I was always under the impression that labels like that are for continuous operation rather than instantaneous limits. The CCS adapter they sell in Europe for S/X allow for higher power than the labels on them state when you first start charging.

The Hawthorne V3 station had the same specs shown as the Fremont. I'm fairly confident it is a continuous rating as @peakshaving mentioned.

The Bjorn IONITY charge session tells us important information that can be inferred about V3 Supercharger specs. The Model 3 taper started at 39% and 392V. But we know the Model 3 can take 250kW from <18%. Doing some quick napkin math, that works out to about 670A at very low SoC to get 250 kW into the battery. That assumes the charging voltage is ~380V at 3% SoC and the constant voltage taper starts around 18% when 392V is reached.

These are not continuous loads as they start to diminish with a few minutes. For the Model 3 LR, it will only be above 500A for about 4 minutes, and that's only if it starts at 0% SoC, which no one ever plans to do. Hence the capability for the car and Supercharger to handle the 670A, which diminishes to ~635A at 2 minutes that then tapers to 500A at 4 minutes.

All of the above are approximate values but likely close.

Also interesting that the 350A is supposedly limited to a maximum operating temperature of 35 degree Celsius (for reference, today it's 103 Fahrenheit here in the area, which is about 39 Celsius).

Peak V3 rates are going to be very dependent on charger and cable temperature, just like 150kW stresses the V2 stations. The most robust charging will occur when the battery is properly warmed to ~40C but the chargers and cables are cold-soaked (not used recently and with lower ambient temperatures).

 

[Zoomit]

Bjorn Nyland's 500A "350 kW" IONITY charge session is likely representative of a Model 3 at an Electrify America 350kW stall in the US. (This assumes Tesla releases a CCS Type 1 adapter for NA that is similar to the CCS Type 2 adapter available in Europe: TMC thread & TMC thread)

Here's a graph that includes Bjorn's IONITY session combined with recent V2 sessions from the 150kW thread.

When comparing the @MarcG charging time with Bjorn's between 20 and 40% SoC, it takes about 90 seconds longer using a V2 Supercharger verses an EA 350kW station. [6.8 min vs 5.3 min] Generally, it looks like those 350 kW EA stations will provide 10-20% faster charging than an unshared V2 Supercharger. More V2 data is needed with the updated latest charging profile to be more exact, but let me repeat this as I expect it will be misunderstood by the typical Model 3 owner:

A Model 3 charging at 190kW on a "350kW" EA station will only be 10-20% faster than when charging on a "150 kW" V2 Supercharger.

A 2-5 min difference is pretty immaterial for my trip planning. Location and other conveniences will determine which sites I'd choose. Please take the "EA vs Supercharging" discussion to this good thread: Electrify America Fast Chargers - Huh?

 

[Eno Deb]

When comparing the @MarcG charging time with Bjorn's between 20 and 40% SoC, it takes about 90 seconds longer using a V2 Supercharger verses an EA 350kW station. [6.8 min vs 5.3 min] Generally, it looks like those 350 kW EA stations will provide 10-20% faster charging than an unshared V2 Supercharger.

I think that's actually a pretty big deal, especially given that you rarely get an unshared Supercharger in many locations in CA. The next question of course is how v3 Supercharging compares. Interestingly early users of the Fremont v3 charger don't seem to get more than ~200kW with public release firmware so far, so it could end up quite similar to CCS.

Another question is whether a CCS adapter, should they release one in North America, will support over ~130kW (which is the highest power observed by Bjoern Nyland when using the European adapter with a Model X).

 

[Zoomit]

Interestingly early users of the Fremont v3 charger don't seem to get more than ~200kW with public release firmware so far

What early users? I’ve only seen one or two reports on reddit and certainly not enough to make a prediction about all.

 

[Eno Deb]

What early users? I’ve only seen one or two reports on reddit and certainly not enough to make a prediction about all.

Two more reports in this thread:

Supercharger V3 unveiling in Fremont

 

[peakshaving]

I think that's actually a pretty big deal, especially given that you rarely get an unshared Supercharger in many locations in CA. The next question of course is how v3 Supercharging compares. Interestingly early users of the Fremont v3 charger don't seem to get more than ~200kW with public release firmware so far, so it could end up quite similar to CCS.

Another question is whether a CCS adapter, should they release one in North America, will support over ~130kW (which is the highest power observed by Bjoern Nyland when using the European adapter with a Model X).

Has anyone torn down the European Model 3s? If the onboard charger/controllers are the same then I'm pretty comfortable saying that a CCS adapter will come eventually.

If it's different... I can see Tesla not wanting to open a can of worms that is offering a retrofit service for every single NA Tesla on the road.

 

[Zoomit]

Two more reports in this thread:

Supercharger V3 unveiling in Fremont

Those were the reports I was thinking of, not reddit. I want to see more before making a conclusion but since “250kW!!” wasn’t shouted in the release notes and the rollout is geographically targeted, I wouldn’t be surprised if 19.20.1 is not the final V3 release.