V4 superchargers Netherlands

[MP3Mike]

I get your point but then why Tesla is trying to update it to V4?

So far they have only upgraded the posts to V4. And the main point of that was longer cables that allow them to reach the charge port on almost any EV.

They are also rated for higher voltages, to be compatible with possible future updates to the charging cabinets. (I'm pretty sure the Cybertruck will have an 800v HV system, but it will likely have the onboard electronics to allow it to continue to use 400v chargers, just like every current 800v EV on the market.)

 

[thewishy]

I get your point but then why Tesla is trying to update it to V4?

The range of voltages supported currently are likely in the 280-450v range.
To support higher voltages, they need the posts to have better electrical insulation (Done with the new V4 posts, and not a lot of work) and adjustments to AC-DC cabinets to support higher voltages (Likely more much work).

Most chargers only have the electronics and insulation to support a set of voltages in that 400ish volt range. Asking for 800v just won't work with the majority of legacy chargers - superchargers included. New chargers "350kw" will generally support 800v as well

With the v4 posts, they're just future proofing. Nothing more than that. If they sell the cybertruck in europe, they'd have to upgrade some cabinets, but that's more easily done than digging all the cables up again

 

[Sean.]

My point, though, is that like all manufacturers, they kind of are tied in to the 400V industry legacy (as far as the cars are concerned). Unless they really don't mind giving up the ability to charge from legacy DC rapid chargers - and I mean not being able to use them at all - then 800V complicates the car and adds expense.

I think this is the main reason you don't see many 800V vehicles.

Outside of Tesla and one or two other charge point operators the majority of ultrafast charge points (beyond 150 kW) are now up to 1000v capable. The likes of Ionity, Fastned, Gridserve EF, Shell etc. and for our American readers here, EA.

Many of the new car platforms coming onto the market are now 800v platforms.

So I’m not sure that statement “like all manufacturers” holds true. The Tesla eco system is for the time firmly 400v.

 

[Roy B]

Outside of Tesla and one or two other charge point operators the majority of ultrafast charge points (beyond 150 kW) are now up to 1000v capable. The likes of Ionity, Fastned, Gridserve EF, Shell etc. and for our American readers here, EA.

Many of the new car platforms coming onto the market are now 800v platforms.

So I’m not sure that statement “like all manufacturers” holds true. The Tesla eco system is for the time firmly 400v.

Agreed. On the charging side, 400V is basically Tesla SuC and legacy 50kW rapids. But right now, there are still enough areas where losing access to legacy 50kW rapids is a major problem. I really don't think Tesla will go down the route of adding cost and complexity to the mass market models.

I would predict that an 800V 3 or Y is probably still three to five years off. By the time it arrives, the SC network will have been fully updated to 800V and those legacy 50kW chargers will all be broken or replaced (well, let's face it, half of them are broken now). My prediction is that when it finally arrives, the 800V 3/Y will not support 400V charging at all - at least not as standard, but very probably not even as an option.

EDIT: Like all manufacturers, they are contrained by the 400V legacy, which means that if they go for an 800V battery they have to add cost/complexity to their design by including a 400V-to-800V converter in the car. My prediction is that Tesla won't do mass market 800V until they can get away without including that. They may well opt to go down the converter route on Cybertruck or even a future S/X, but time will tell. I wouldn't expect to see it on a 3/Y, buy maybe they will offer it as an extra cost optiojn if there are still markets by then where they can't reasonably sell a car that doesn't support 400V chargning.

 

[ringi]

Why can't the moter driver inverter be designed to also convert between 400v/800v?

 

[MP3Mike]

Why can't the moter driver inverter be designed to also convert between 400v/800v?

It can, that is what Hyundai/Kia do on the E-GMP vehicles. (Though it is limited to 150kW on those vehicles.)

But that still increases costs/complexity.

 

[Sean.]

EDIT: Like all manufacturers, they are contrained by the 400V legacy, which means that if they go for an 800V battery they have to add cost/complexity to their design by including a 400V-to-800V converter in the car. My prediction is that Tesla won't do mass market 800V until they can get away without including that. They may well opt to go down the converter route on Cybertruck or even a future S/X, but time will tell. I wouldn't expect to see it on a 3/Y, buy maybe they will offer it as an extra cost optiojn if there are still markets by then where they can't reasonably sell a car that doesn't support 400V chargning.

On ‘legacy’ 500v charging platforms, the issue may not be the “other guys” but Tesla themselves.

No one outside of Tesla knows precisely how they will upgrade the massive installed estate of superchargers.

@Mrbrock says “they will just use converters in the cabinets”. Will they though? There’s still a very big proportion of v2 sites. Many of these older units will have been on the ground 10 years now - will they be easily upgraded internally or just swapped out completely. Will Tesla not bother and just concentrate on upgrading the forthcoming v4 sites….

So to my mind any future Tesla cars that go 800V (or higher), will definitely have an onboard 400/500v converter of some sort.

 

[WannabeOwner]

there are still enough areas where losing access to legacy 50kW rapids is a major problem

Bjorn did a YouTube a while back, visiting an old / legacy site that had 50kW chargers. He made the observation "No one stops here now, there are Rapid charges just across the parking lot" (and on all aerial route stops in Norway now ...)

He suggested that they should be picked up and dropped in remote locations, where they would still be useful - and fill in gaps in the Rapid network.

 

[qwickshot]

Bjorn also made a video suggesting 800v was over hyped in that the practical benefits to the customer just weren’t there because they are ultimately still bottlenecked by the same cells all the 400V cars are using.

An EV6 charges marginally faster than a Model Y and that’s assuming it isn’t cold gating as they all seems to do all the time.

In fact EVs charge so quickly now, most of the time they charge too quickly and you end up paying for expensive electricity you don’t actually need. By the time you have been to the loo and grabbed any refreshments you’d like, often the car has charged well beyond were it needed to be to get to the destination.

 

[thewishy]

@Mrbrock says “they will just use converters in the cabinets”. Will they though? There’s still a very big proportion of v2 sites. Many of these older units will have been on the ground 10 years now - will they be easily upgraded internally or just swapped out completely. Will Tesla not bother and just concentrate on upgrading the forthcoming v4 sites….

It's not just a case of throwing more voltage at existing systems. Things need to be designed and rated for a particular voltage, more voltage means you need more insulation - perfectly doable with a new design, impractical to retrofit

We expect the cybertruck and the semi to run on 800v, but neither of those are coming to the UK any time soon. Hence it makes sense for Telsa to future proof a little, but certainly not replace units wholesale for the benefit of a very limited number of third party vehicles which could benefit fro i.t

 

[qwickshot]

Why do you expect the cyber truck to run on 800v?

Doesn’t the Semi use the same motors as found in a model 3 and it’s already in production.

 

[thewishy]

Why do you expect the cyber truck to run on 800v?

Doesn’t the Semi use the same motors as found in a model 3 and it’s already in production.

Tesla suggests possible shift to 800V in Cybertruck and Semi, not Robotaxi or 3/Y among many reports, but of course it's all rumours at the mo.
Tesla Semi is 1000v nominal, which makes sense when you're trying to transfer at 1mW... Pretty sure it doesn't use the same motors as a model 3

 

[Jason71]

Tesla suggests possible shift to 800V in Cybertruck and Semi, not Robotaxi or 3/Y among many reports, but of course it's all rumours at the mo.
Tesla Semi is 1000v nominal, which makes sense when you're trying to transfer at 1mW... Pretty sure it doesn't use the same motors as a model 3

I read that the motors were basically the same as those in the Plaid

 

[ringi]

Pretty sure it doesn't use the same motors as a model 3

As there is an inverter between the batteries and moters the same moters can be used on different batteries pack voltages.

 

[Mrbrock]

On ‘legacy’ 500v charging platforms, the issue may not be the “other guys” but Tesla themselves.

No one outside of Tesla knows precisely how they will upgrade the massive installed estate of superchargers.

@Mrbrock says “they will just use converters in the cabinets”. Will they though? There’s still a very big proportion of v2 sites. Many of these older units will have been on the ground 10 years now - will they be easily upgraded internally or just swapped out completely. Will Tesla not bother and just concentrate on upgrading the forthcoming v4 sites….

So to my mind any future Tesla cars that go 800V (or higher), will definitely have an onboard 400/500v converter of some sort.

V2 is different. They could increase voltage and get to 300kw but the cabinet is a different architecture so to get to 1mw with V2 they need to be 6x the voltage. Not feasible. V3 was designed with a DC DC bus between cabinets and 4 posts per cabinet so there are a lot more options for upgrading. Tesla would just tear down and replace V2 with V4 before even attempting to convert the internals to higher capacity.

It's not just a case of throwing more voltage at existing systems. Things need to be designed and rated for a particular voltage, more voltage means you need more insulation - perfectly doable with a new design, impractical to retrofit

We expect the cybertruck and the semi to run on 800v, but neither of those are coming to the UK any time soon. Hence it makes sense for Telsa to future proof a little, but certainly not replace units wholesale for the benefit of a very limited number of third party vehicles which could benefit fro i.t

This only comes in to play above 2000 volts. Excerpt from a quick google search:

High-voltage cables differ from lower-voltage cables in that they have additional internal layers in the insulation system to control the electric field around the conductor. These additional layers are required at 2,000 volts and above between conductors.

Just because the current rating plates only show 400V doesn’t mean they can’t test the same equipment at 800v and get it certified then affix new ratings plates to the cabinets and posts.

 

[spdpsba]

V2 is different. They could increase voltage and get to 300kw but the cabinet is a different architecture so to get to 1mw with V2 they need to be 6x the voltage. Not feasible. V3 was designed with a DC DC bus between cabinets and 4 posts per cabinet so there are a lot more options for upgrading. Tesla would just tear down and replace V2 with V4 before even attempting to convert the internals to higher capacity.


This only comes in to play above 2000 volts. Excerpt from a quick google search:

High-voltage cables differ from lower-voltage cables in that they have additional internal layers in the insulation system to control the electric field around the conductor. These additional layers are required at 2,000 volts and above between conductors.

Just because the current rating plates only show 400V doesn’t mean they can’t test the same equipment at 800v and get it certified then affix new ratings plates to the cabinets and posts.

That’s amazing level of details and information. Though I’ve started the thread with a very different intent this has organically grown to show the level of expertise we have on this forum. Hopefully we see similar kind of discussion that can enrich other threads than moderators have to close a thread because of constant arguments.

 

[Roy B]

Doesn’t the Semi use the same motors as found in a model 3 and it’s already in production.

It's not really about the motors per se - there's so much power electronics between the battery and the motors that the two are pretty much unrelated.

The semi will undoubtedly be higher voltage, both for charge speeds and to be able to achieve the necessary horsepower - which would otherwise require stupidly high currents from the battery pack. But the semi isn't a problem, as it's a given that it will use dedicated Megachargers.

The Cybertruck situation is different, though - as a consumer product it will need to use the SuC network - and I think everything is speculation at this point.

 

[Mrbrock]

That’s amazing level of details and information. Though I’ve started the thread with a very different intent this has organically grown to show the level of expertise we have on this forum. Hopefully we see similar kind of discussion that can enrich other threads than moderators have to close a thread because of constant arguments.

Thanks, but it’s all just cobbled together from the main US Supercharger parts of the forum here. I don’t claim to be an expert, just picking up bits and pieces from people many times smarter than me. Tesla doesn’t want to share too much but the information is out there.

 

[KJD]

Hmm Solar canopy and V4 it looks like in France ??

https://twitter.com/x/status/1676698556642611204

 

[Mrbrock]

With a towing stall.