Vampire Drain is still a major downside after 5 years

[widodh]

Obviously there are a few, and they're on this forum. For myself and I think the vast majority of owners, it's not a major downside nor is it even a minor downside. If this is what bothers you, you should be happy you don't have any important things to be concerned about.

Chill out and just enjoy your Tesla. Or buy a different EV next time if it really bothers you this much, and see if the tradeoff for another brand's limitations is worth it.

I think you misunderstood me. I love my Tesla and I wouldn't trade them for something else.

But the Vampire Drain is something which annoys me as I don't see why it's needed. The computing power needed to do the work when the car is idle isn't that much.

 

[MN-MS100D]

I left my 2017 100D plugged into my HPWC, parked in an unheated garage at about 35 degrees (F) for 7 days with "power saving" ON and "always connected" OFF, and lost only 8 miles (287 RM -279 RM). I couldn't believe it was that low. I'm now on board with other peoples experiences who say the car goes into deep sleep after 24 (or so?) hours. I stopped the tesla app before my trip and never woke the car until I returned back home. I do not have any 3rd party apps. Running version 2018.46.2.8f8dc1b. Before the trip, I changed the charge limit to 50%, but I am positive the car never charged at all because I monitor all kwh used by the HPWC.

 

[mswlogo]

I think you misunderstood me. I love my Tesla and I wouldn't trade them for something else.

But the Vampire Drain is something which annoys me as I don't see why it's needed. The computing power needed to do the work when the car is idle isn't that much.

I think there are a lot of cases of real Vampire Drain that might be excessive due to bugs, defects, operator error or age. These get discussed and then folks with normal amounts of Vampire Drain OCD on the topic and think and worry about it to much and convince themselves that their car is now diseased with the Vampire Drain flu.

It’s a well known fact when you bought both cars it would have some Vampire Drain. And the battery should last a good long time and you should get good range and performance.

 

[BruceW]

I understand your frustration, but my experience has been very different. I travel periodically to Europe, and twice now I have left my 2017 S 100D unplugged at JFK airport, in long term parking (outside). The last time, when I arrived and parked, I showed 284 RM at 84% SCO; 13 days later, I returned to find I had 273 RM at 81% SOC. Basically, lost 3KW in 14 days. I think this is reasonable. The difference in our experiences is mysterious.

 

[widodh]

I think there are a lot of cases of real Vampire Drain that might be excessive due to bugs, defects, operator error or age. These get discussed and then folks with normal amounts of Vampire Drain OCD on the topic and think and worry about it to much and convince themselves that their car is now diseased with the Vampire Drain flu.

It’s a well known fact when you bought both cars it would have some Vampire Drain. And the battery should last a good long time and you should get good range and performance.

The fact that you call it 'OCD' is a slight insult towards me if I'm honest. I'm just stating that I can't see a good reason why it should happen.

Yes, the annual costs are rather low, slowing down a bit through the year would save me a lot more energy, but I'm just saying thati t annoys me that when I park the car that a couple of days later it lost a few kWh.

On the 100D it's less of a problem because it has a rather big battery, but on the S85 (81kWh battery!) it can be 10% or more within a week.

I find that a lot of range lost for a car merely being parked.

I understand your frustration, but my experience has been very different. I travel periodically to Europe, and twice now I have left my 2017 S 100D unplugged at JFK airport, in long term parking (outside). The last time, when I arrived and parked, I showed 284 RM at 84% SCO; 13 days later, I returned to find I had 273 RM at 81% SOC. Basically, lost 3KW in 14 days. I think this is reasonable. The difference in our experiences is mysterious.

3% in 13 days is a very good result!

My S85 nor my S100D can get such results. They will loose way more.

 

[emir-t]

I completely agree with @widodh here. I can't understand why no one can ever criticize Tesla here or on reddit anymore. Why do people immediately go 'Go buy some other EV then' attitude? The guy is not bashing Tesla or whining about it. He just wants to discuss it. I remember him from way back when and our collective efforts to global EV communities can't be wiped like this just because someone wanted to discuss something.

To get back to the topic, I agree this is an issue with Tesla. Only a minor inconvenience on everyday life but a major issue for long term parking on an airport or somewhere like that. My old car was an i3 and it didn't have this issue at all. Now especially with the cold the drain is all over the place I can't even track it.

As for the reason it really is mind boggling why keeping the car connected would cost so much energy. I would love someone to record and interpret everything the car does using maybe a CAN sniffer. Why would HV contactors close so much? It can't be the 12V system only.

 

[ucmndd]

To get back to the topic, I agree this is an issue with Tesla. Only a minor inconvenience on everyday life but a major issue for long term parking on an airport or somewhere like that.

Ok, but really. What’s the problem with using the power down feature during those incredibly rare events? It seems the solution is already at hand.

 

[emir-t]

Ok, but really. What’s the problem with using the power down feature during those incredibly rare events? It seems the solution is already at hand.

I think even that doesn't solve it.

I believe the reason Tesla has this and others don't is; Tesla is a computer made into a car whereas others including every other EVs are still a car system made into a computer as much as they could.

 

[mswlogo]

The fact that you call it 'OCD' is a slight insult towards me if I'm honest. I'm just stating that I can't see a good reason why it should happen.

Yes, the annual costs are rather low, slowing down a bit through the year would save me a lot more energy, but I'm just saying thati t annoys me that when I park the car that a couple of days later it lost a few kWh.

On the 100D it's less of a problem because it has a rather big battery, but on the S85 (81kWh battery!) it can be 10% or more within a week.

I find that a lot of range lost for a car merely being parked.


3% in 13 days is a very good result!

My S85 nor my S100D can get such results. They will loose way more.

He's claiming 1 mile per day for 14 days which is 4-8x better than Model S manual states. First I've seen that kind of claim.
And you are complaining that you are already doing ~3x better than the manual states.

You are getting 0.37% loss per day (2km / 539 km range on a S100). Manual states 1.0%.

Yeah, I call that obsessive.

Hey, a lot of obsesser's here, including me. I'm obsessing over your obsessing, don't take it personally

 

[widodh]

To get back to the topic, I agree this is an issue with Tesla. Only a minor inconvenience on everyday life but a major issue for long term parking on an airport or somewhere like that. My old car was an i3 and it didn't have this issue at all. Now especially with the cold the drain is all over the place I can't even track it.

As for the reason it really is mind boggling why keeping the car connected would cost so much energy. I would love someone to record and interpret everything the car does using maybe a CAN sniffer. Why would HV contactors close so much? It can't be the 12V system only.

Thanks!

I merely starting a discussion here and trying to see if other people feel alike. I'm not bashing Tesla, in fact, I love the cars and I'll probably keep buying Tesla for a very long time.

But I just can't see a reason why these systems have to use so much energy.

Any modern smartphone can keep a LTE connection open, Bluetooth, and do a lot more stuff on it's tiny battery for hours. Why does a car suddenly need to do so much more?

To me it seems like a 'poor design' that it can't be parked for a longer period without being plugged in.

He's claiming 1 mile per day for 14 days which is 4-8x better than Model S manual states. First I've seen that kind of claim.
And you are complaining that you are already doing ~3x better than the manual states.

You are getting 0.37% loss per day (2km / 539 km range on a S100). Manual states 1.0%.

Yeah, I call that obsessive.

Hey, a lot of obsesser's here, including me. I'm obsessing over your obsessing, don't take it personally

Ok, I won't!

I'm looking at it differently: 2km per day is 400Wh, that's 20W continues draw. I would say that's a lot for a car just sitting idle.

 

[mswlogo]

Thanks!

I merely starting a discussion here and trying to see if other people feel alike. I'm not bashing Tesla, in fact, I love the cars and I'll probably keep buying Tesla for a very long time.

But I just can't see a reason why these systems have to use so much energy.

Any modern smartphone can keep a LTE connection open, Bluetooth, and do a lot more stuff on it's tiny battery for hours. Why does a car suddenly need to do so much more?

To me it seems like a 'poor design' that it can't be parked for a longer period without being plugged in.


Ok, I won't!

I'm looking at it differently: 2km per day is 400Wh, that's 20W continues draw. I would say that's a lot for a car just sitting idle.

How many sensors are running to protect the battery?
How many computers are running to monitor the sensors and allow remote operation?
What’s the cost of running an LTE connection?
How much loss is in the battery chemistry itself?
How much error in guessing how much battery energy is left?
What’s the cost on keyless entry radios?

20 watts doesn’t sound like much.

 

[miimura]

The vampire drain is completely due to the computers that Tesla leaves running in the cars. Other EVs like the e-Golf and the RAV4 EV (both of which I've had) don't lose any measurable traction battery energy when parked. The e-Golf is the best at this. One guy left his parked for 9 months without the EVSE connected and without the 12V on a tender. It just started right up and displayed a range loss of 1 or 2 miles. The RAV4 EV will kill the 12V given enough weeks parked because it only ever connects the traction battery to the car when ON and READY or charging. A brand new flooded starter battery might last 5 or 6 weeks parked, but the deep cycling kills them within about 2 years if you don't drive the car every day. Many of us have changed to larger 60Ah AGM 12V batteries in the RAV4 EV.
Both of these cars have keyless entry with touch sensors on the door handles. The drain from that system is insignificant.

 

[widodh]

How many sensors are running to protect the battery?
How many computers are running to monitor the sensors and allow remote operation?
What’s the cost of running an LTE connection?
How much loss is in the battery chemistry itself?
How much error in guessing how much battery energy is left?
What’s the cost on keyless entry radios?

20 watts doesn’t sound like much.

An iPhone can keep LTE open on it's 2Ah battery for over 24 hours when you don't use the screen.

In addition it has temp sensors running and is doing a lot more work.

Lithium-Ion itself has almost no self discharge, so that's not really an issue here.

Keyless entry can be done by ICE cars and their 12V battery without problems, so why can't a Model S/X?

The vampire drain is completely due to the computers that Tesla leaves running in the cars. Other EVs like the e-Golf and the RAV4 EV (both of which I've had) don't lose any measurable traction battery energy when parked. The e-Golf is the best at this. One guy left his parked for 9 months without the EVSE connected and without the 12V on a tender. It just started right up and displayed a range loss of 1 or 2 miles. The RAV4 EV will kill the 12V given enough weeks parked because it only ever connects the traction battery to the car when ON and READY or charging. A brand new flooded starter battery might last 5 or 6 weeks parked, but the deep cycling kills them within about 2 years if you don't drive the car every day. Many of us have changed to larger 60Ah AGM 12V batteries in the RAV4 EV.
Both of these cars have keyless entry with touch sensors on the door handles. The drain from that system is insignificant.

Indeed, the e-Golf is much better in this area.

 

[TMeister]

I think you're going to have to toss this up to choices and priorities made by Tesla engineering. Reducing standby energy is probably pretty low on the priority list. In the design center for the car, I would even presume that staff were told not to worry about energy consumption, it is so overshadowed by traction energy use that it should not be a concern.

In the phone world reducing standby energy consumption is a top priority. It's just not the same for a car. That "feature" or lack of it will not lose a sale. Different for a phone for sure.

As the OP said they really like the Tesla and wouldn't trade it out for its standby energy use. That reinforces the point that low standby energy use is not a deal maker in this business.

So yeah it can be a discussion point. There's probably a lot of things that can be done to reduce it but for most here it's simply not a big deal.

 

[animorph]

Tesla uploads data from the car and downloads firmware and maps to the car while it is idle.
Tesla charges the 12V battery from the main battery. Normally this would be hidden from the user in an ICE car, but we can see the results.
Tesla provides settings that reduce vampire drain, though not all are explicitly described. I get less than 2 rated miles/day of vampire drain if I'm not waking up the car with the fob or power hungry settings or apps. I'm happy with that.

 

[whttiger25]

Let's say you charged your ihpone to 90%, then turned it off, and stored it for a week. Would you expect it to be at 90% when you turn it back on?

 

[whttiger25]

Tesla should implement a "Vacation Mode" that completely shuts down the car with the exception of one entry method that can be used with almost everything else completely powered off. Maybe use one hard button like the trunk release to wake up the car. TeslaBjorn had a recent video where someone went on vacation from Oslo to Las Vegas and after a week his Model X dropped from ~50% to 5%. That is completely unacceptable when the owner did everything they could in the settings to reduce the vampire drain.

50 to 5% in 1 week indicates some other serious issue.

 

[mswlogo]

Let's say you charged your ihpone to 90%, then turned it off, and stored it for a week. Would you expect it to be at 90% when you turn it back on?

I actually do this quite a bit because I have quite a few phones for testing and they do hold their charge incredibly well when turned off (probably be at 89% a week later). But on "standby" (on LTE/Wifi) doing nothing they easily go down 30% a day (of their relative capacity).

But not all Lithium's are the same and you can't compare a phone Lithium to a Tesla Lithium. Nor do I think you can compare Tesla Lithium to anyone other than Tesla. How much loss a Tesla battery has unhooked, I have no idea. But I wouldn't rule out it ccould be different.

I think if it was that easy and cheap to do to go from 1-2% per day to 0.01% a day, they would have done it. They aren't dummies and you have to put some faith in their choices.

There are certainly bug, defects and operator error that go well above normal. But if it's at or below what's in the manual why start a "this is unacceptable thread". Now if you want to speculate what is the root loss and how they could fix it, go for it. But to say flat out it's unacceptable when it's clearly advertised as such seems conflicting.

Now perhaps that was the intent of the OP. That it was meant to come across, why can't Tesla do better "going forward" on new designs and what could/would they do to improve it. But the OP came more across that, wow I never expected it to still be this bad and they need to fix this on my car. When Tesla has never claimed any huge improvement in this area.

 

[miimura]

50 to 5% in 1 week indicates some other serious issue.

I agree, that car had a serious issue. The problem is that the car didn't say it had a problem when the owner parked it before going on vacation. Maybe the 12V battery was weak and needed to be replaced soon. We don't know. Still, it shouldn't happen.

 

[whttiger25]

I agree, that car had a serious issue. The problem is that the car didn't say it had a problem when the owner parked it before going on vacation. Maybe the 12V battery was weak and needed to be replaced soon. We don't know. Still, it shouldn't happen.

Sounds like a rare one-off case. I've owned cars that had issues that "shouldn't happen". That happens to many cars. If it is a rare issue then it's clear that Tesla is just being held to a much higher standard than all other cars.