-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
Veganism/Leather etc. out of Market Action
- Thread starter jhm
- Start date
anticitizen13.7
Not posting at TMC after 9/17/2018
Haha, I was watching Bear Grylls’ adventure show a few weeks ago and he caught bugs to give Keri Russell (actress from FX series ‘The Americans’) for breakfast. I think she found it pretty gross, along with all the other yucky things Bear recommended, which included partially digested fruit harvested from the gut of a bird carcass.
anticitizen13.7
Not posting at TMC after 9/17/2018
I have several vegan friends.
They are mostly low key about it. Ironically, most of them own carnivorous pets (dogs and cats).
They are mostly low key about it. Ironically, most of them own carnivorous pets (dogs and cats).
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Dogs are more omnivorous and seem to be able to exist on a vegan diet. Doesn't seem to work for cats though.
Coincidentally, I just applied for a job with these folks. Maybe Tesla can team up with them for a good vegan leather alternative:
https://boltthreads.com/technology/mylo/
https://boltthreads.com/technology/mylo/
Simple, their ancestors - at lest for most of human evolution, let's say 2 millions years back - didn't eat beans, quite simply because they are very toxic until processed, usually by soaking for long periods, then cooking at high temperature. Obviously humans didn't have the use of fire for most of that time-sale and neither did they have pots for boiling the stuff in.
Furthermore, beans are full of physics acid, which is an anti-nutrient. So on paper they look pretty good for you, reality is that the nutrients are not bio-available. Beans are also rich in oligosaccharides, which are not digested very well by many people, the pass through to the lower-gut where they ferment - that's where you get the unpleasant, or amusing (depending on the company you keep), side-effects. You have a lot of lectins present too, which aren't handled well by many.
So here you have something that wasn't available for most of our evolution, and for which our genome is not adapted, but now is eaten world-wide, same as grains, soy, sugar and industrial seed-oils. All highly toxic, all killing people insidiously. But guess what, very profitable for Big Food as they're cheap to make, with a long shelf-life. The fact they make you sick is a bonus, this is where Big Pharma can step-in to sell their BS products like stains - which have a zero or negative benefit for the vast majority of people and are totally unnecessary.
There's a big desire to keep the status-quo, as we have in the automotive industry. Lots of people making money from other people's misery.
Cats are carnivorous, anyone feeding a cat a vegan diet should be reported to animal welfare
I've been reading-up on human nutrition for the last 7 years. I was really fat in 2011 and constantly sick, I was very fortunate to stumble-across a book called Wheat Belly, which started my education. I quickly devoured several books on the subject and found a common-thread with grains, sugar and industrial seed-oil all shown to be highly deleterious to human health. At the time, this led me to adopt what's know as a Paleo diet.
Three days after starting, the majority of my health issues cleared up and 6 months later I had dropped 15kgs of fat. All this while eating as much as I wanted of unprocessed natural foods - essentially plenty of veggies, meat and good fats. I continued my reading and then evolved to a low-carb, high-fat regime, I felt even better and lost more fat, gained muscle. This transitioned to a ketogenic diet - again benefits were seen.
Now for the last 9 months I've been carnivorous - only eating animal products (the occasional beer being the main exception). It's great, I feel wonderful, I look fabulous. I'm fitter than at any time in my life, I'm 52, people think I'm ate 30's.
I can dig up all sorts of arguments and papers to justify why I think meat is the idea food for humans - fatty meat, that is, with plenty of variety, muscle-meat isn't that nutritious, you need some organ-meats in there to. But I think it's easier to think about it from an historical perspective. Humans are the apex-predator on Earth. Why? It's because of our big brains. How did we get our big brains? It wasn't by sitting in tree chewing on leaves, it's from eating other animal's brains, organs and bone-marrow. Super-high nutritional density giving the raw-materials, primarily fats, in abundant quantities - cholesterol being a main one - that facilitated our brain development. Hell, our brains grew so big that our offspring could no-longer pass trough the birth-canal, so we evolved to be born with unformed skulls to allow that.
No doubt that humans did eat other foods than animals, but only in times of scarcity, they just don't give the bang for the buck. Obviously in the summer and autumn, they would have gorged on fruits - although worth noting that these fruits would have been much less sugar-rich than the genetically engineered stuff we get these days. The richer carbohydrate diet would have fattened them-up nicely for winter.
These days we don't need to fatten-up for winter, we have food availability 24/7/365, unfortunately most of it toxic, calorie-rich, but poor nutritionally. So the majority are obese fat, T2D or pre-T2D. This is a recent thing, the last 100 years or so, it's processed shitty food that's causing it, not over-eating per-se, calories-in versus calories-out is complete BS, if you eat proper food your hormones regulate this without having to login to MyFitnessPal.
Something happened 10.000 years ago. Humans got shorter, their brains shrank, bone-density decreased, they started to get dental caries. What changed? Agriculture, the Neolithic period. Of course this brought benefits, cities could be established and there's a very strong case that civilisation came on the back of it, but nutritionally it was a big step backwards.
Regarding ethics of eating animals - something I strongly care about, hence I only buy grass-fed beef from small, humane farms, but as I said in the market thread, agrarian farming is reckoned to kill many small mammals. There's much collateral damage from mono-culture farming techniques that are not often considered. Ordering the vegetarian meal? There's more animal blood on your hands
Then for the ecological aspects. It's true that factory-farming cattle is very inefficient and leads to a lot of water usage - although all that water doesn't disappear, it's back into the environment almost immediately, like conservation of energy. But well-managed herds can use 10% of the water quantity. Further more, cattle should be pastured, it's their natural food. Pastures are highly beneficial, it's a self-maintaining eco-system that can re-seatblish grasslands, sequester carbon and halt soil-erosion. Grass Based Health: The Big Picture
And I don't believe for a minute that farting cows are driving global warming. In recent history, the plains of all continents were covered by huge herds of grazing ruminants. Did we have a global warming issue then? No we did not.
I'm totally open-minded on all the above and will change my view immediately when giving compelling evidence. As I said, I was a vegetarian for 10 years, thinking it was the right thing to do. I was wrong.
Three days after starting, the majority of my health issues cleared up and 6 months later I had dropped 15kgs of fat. All this while eating as much as I wanted of unprocessed natural foods - essentially plenty of veggies, meat and good fats. I continued my reading and then evolved to a low-carb, high-fat regime, I felt even better and lost more fat, gained muscle. This transitioned to a ketogenic diet - again benefits were seen.
Now for the last 9 months I've been carnivorous - only eating animal products (the occasional beer being the main exception). It's great, I feel wonderful, I look fabulous. I'm fitter than at any time in my life, I'm 52, people think I'm ate 30's.
I can dig up all sorts of arguments and papers to justify why I think meat is the idea food for humans - fatty meat, that is, with plenty of variety, muscle-meat isn't that nutritious, you need some organ-meats in there to. But I think it's easier to think about it from an historical perspective. Humans are the apex-predator on Earth. Why? It's because of our big brains. How did we get our big brains? It wasn't by sitting in tree chewing on leaves, it's from eating other animal's brains, organs and bone-marrow. Super-high nutritional density giving the raw-materials, primarily fats, in abundant quantities - cholesterol being a main one - that facilitated our brain development. Hell, our brains grew so big that our offspring could no-longer pass trough the birth-canal, so we evolved to be born with unformed skulls to allow that.
No doubt that humans did eat other foods than animals, but only in times of scarcity, they just don't give the bang for the buck. Obviously in the summer and autumn, they would have gorged on fruits - although worth noting that these fruits would have been much less sugar-rich than the genetically engineered stuff we get these days. The richer carbohydrate diet would have fattened them-up nicely for winter.
These days we don't need to fatten-up for winter, we have food availability 24/7/365, unfortunately most of it toxic, calorie-rich, but poor nutritionally. So the majority are obese fat, T2D or pre-T2D. This is a recent thing, the last 100 years or so, it's processed shitty food that's causing it, not over-eating per-se, calories-in versus calories-out is complete BS, if you eat proper food your hormones regulate this without having to login to MyFitnessPal.
Something happened 10.000 years ago. Humans got shorter, their brains shrank, bone-density decreased, they started to get dental caries. What changed? Agriculture, the Neolithic period. Of course this brought benefits, cities could be established and there's a very strong case that civilisation came on the back of it, but nutritionally it was a big step backwards.
Regarding ethics of eating animals - something I strongly care about, hence I only buy grass-fed beef from small, humane farms, but as I said in the market thread, agrarian farming is reckoned to kill many small mammals. There's much collateral damage from mono-culture farming techniques that are not often considered. Ordering the vegetarian meal? There's more animal blood on your hands
Then for the ecological aspects. It's true that factory-farming cattle is very inefficient and leads to a lot of water usage - although all that water doesn't disappear, it's back into the environment almost immediately, like conservation of energy. But well-managed herds can use 10% of the water quantity. Further more, cattle should be pastured, it's their natural food. Pastures are highly beneficial, it's a self-maintaining eco-system that can re-seatblish grasslands, sequester carbon and halt soil-erosion. Grass Based Health: The Big Picture
And I don't believe for a minute that farting cows are driving global warming. In recent history, the plains of all continents were covered by huge herds of grazing ruminants. Did we have a global warming issue then? No we did not.
I'm totally open-minded on all the above and will change my view immediately when giving compelling evidence. As I said, I was a vegetarian for 10 years, thinking it was the right thing to do. I was wrong.
Whoops, I missed this yesterday. Greger is a vegan ideologue who cherry-picks data from epidemiological studies - which are very weak evidence of any thing, they can only imply trends that would then need to be tested with RCT's. He re-packages these findings to fit his narrative. Peer-reviewed my ass. If you're gullible enough to fall for what he says, then I'd be very careful where you invest your money.
You have to go to the original studies, you have to read the whole study, not just the abstract. You have to see who paid for the study and who were the authors and what are their sources of funding. In the world of nutrition much of the "research" is paid for by Big Food and they have the agenda to keep things as they are, keep feeding the people the crap diet that Ancel Keys pushed-through in the 1960's. Hell it kills people, but so what, we're getting rich!
RobStark
Well-Known Member
Massive load of crap.
Mexicans have had beans in their diet as a staple for over 5k years.
And currently life expectancy, at 76.7, is the longest it has ever been.
So I explained the ruminant flatulence problem: it's due to getting their digestive biota messed up by antibiotics.
Anyway, there is strong evidence that a really-really-high-meat diet isn't so great in the long term. But the key is lots of leaves. Leaves are good. A diet of leaves and meat is pretty healthy. Since my digestive biota were *completely trashed* by antibiotics, there've been two years when that's basically what I could eat, plus nuts. I have been trying to reintroduce enough symbiotic bacteria to eat fruit and grains and peas in small quantities, but it's difficult.
You can get a healthy vegetarian diet; the principles were worked out hundreds of years ago in India, among other places, and involve a very careful balance of lentils, rice, and other things to make sure you get complete protein, as well as (of course) a lot of leaves. It's more complicated than a diet with meat, though.
Anyway, there is strong evidence that a really-really-high-meat diet isn't so great in the long term. But the key is lots of leaves. Leaves are good. A diet of leaves and meat is pretty healthy. Since my digestive biota were *completely trashed* by antibiotics, there've been two years when that's basically what I could eat, plus nuts. I have been trying to reintroduce enough symbiotic bacteria to eat fruit and grains and peas in small quantities, but it's difficult.
You can get a healthy vegetarian diet; the principles were worked out hundreds of years ago in India, among other places, and involve a very careful balance of lentils, rice, and other things to make sure you get complete protein, as well as (of course) a lot of leaves. It's more complicated than a diet with meat, though.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Greger provides supporting data for his claims which anyone can follow up on and check. Something you obviously did not do with the Kresser article you linked previously. When I followed up on the Kresser links they didn't actually say what he claimed they did, when I've followed up on Greger's links they did. Not saying everything he claims is 100% accurate but questioning his credibility but accepting Kresser at face value does not help your case.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Anecdote is not evidence. You'll see plenty of people making similar claims on vegan diets. This guy went vegan, eating a lot of fruit and carbohydrates.
Completely agree, I took the Kresser on trust, my bad, I'll dig into that more.
We actually have Greger's book at home - as I said, I've no ideology with food, I'm only interested in what's best for health - if that turned out to be re-fried beans then that's what I'd be eating.
I have vegan friends who love Greger. I asked them to give me one of his lectures, a good one, and the very first claim he made was such a load of crap, yes I went to the studies, that I gave up after 20 minutes. We have one of Rich Roll's books too and my wife listens to his podcast, we're seriously not biased against vegans, just seeking the truth for a good health span.
5k years isn't ancestors, that's recent history as far a human genetics are concerned. I'm talking last ice-age and beyond.
I'm yet to see anything that suggests an all-meat diet is bad, please furnish if you have because I'm very interested in anything that challenges my current thinking on diet.
Indeed, antibiotics are a disaster for the whole system, should be avoided as much as possible. Fortunately, since I went Paleo and on from there I haven't had anything that needed antibiotics, in fact I hardly get sick at all.
As for the biome, it's true that certain fibre can feed what's considered beneficial bacteria, but I'm also led to believe that a carnivore diet is also very good for it - actually pretty much any diet that removes sugars, because it's these that boost the bad stuff.
Anecdote is not evidence. You'll see plenty of people making similar claims on vegan diets. This guy went vegan, eating a lot of fruit and carbohydrates.
Indeed, some people will do great with it shirt term, long term not, but even then you'll get outliers that do - the aforementioned Rich Roll, for instance, he's a top-class athlete on a vegan diet. Some people have genetics that cope with anything.
Mader Levap
Member
It is impossible for majority of humanity to convert to purely vegan diet for various reasons (from medical to people just liking taste of meat, period). It IS possible for majority of humanity to convert to electric vehicles.
In this sense positive influence of EVs will be greater than positive influence of veganism on environment.
In this sense positive influence of EVs will be greater than positive influence of veganism on environment.
Bet TSLA
Active Member
This is silly. How do you get from "impossible" to "liking taste"? In any case, it is well documented that when people change their diet that their taste for things changes as well. It seems we are slaves to our gut bacteria (at least that's one plausible explanation). When you change your diet your populations of gut bacteria undergo shifts, which seems to correlate with a variety of behavioral changes.
I've been eating more or less vegan for the past eight years (for health reasons). When I started it felt like my meals were missing the main course. After a while I found that when I eat meat (which I do occasionally, mostly for social reasons) the meal feels overly heavy and hard to digest. On the other hand, I still love cheese and cheat on my vegan diet whenever opportunity presents itself.
I don't think nutritional science has gotten very far yet. People continue to be terrible experimental subjects, and given the involvement of bacterial populations we can't control for anything really.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
True, it's likely our digestive tract has not changed much for 10's, maybe 100's of thousands of years. Regarding beans I know that at least some beans can be eaten raw when young, fava beans for instance. Friends mentioned eating raw favas in Italy which surprised me so I looked it up.
However fire is a natural phenomena and animals will move in after a wildfire and eat cooked food so it's possible cooked beans have been consumed long before active cooking took place. Additionally there is evidence that we have been actively controlling fire for over 1 million years Human Ancestors Tamed Fire Earlier Than Thought
Similar threads
