Veganism/Leather etc. out of Market Action

[jhm]

Leather is important. Whenever i'm stuck in a traffic jam and i'm really hungry, it's very tempting to nibble a bit on my steering wheel. Most substitute materials taste awfull

Ha. Perhaps we should move this whole issue to its own thread where we can digest it.

 

[Waiting4M3]

Ha. Perhaps we should move this whole issue to its own thread where we can digest it.

yes, lets hide it in some other thread

 

[Zaxxon]

yes, lets hide it in some other thread

A 'patent'ly ridiculous idea. A cham[ois], even.

You suede get right out of here with that talk.

 

[ggr]

Mod: moved a few of the more recent Vegan/Leather posts out to a new thread. I had hoped the discussion would die down by now. I don't have the human bandwidth to go back and move all of them, though... so please take ALL discussion of that topic to the new thread. --ggr.

 

[neroden]

Thanks preemptively for moving my comments if you get the human bandwidth. ;-)

 

[Tslynk67]

Exactly why I’ve been vegan for 6 months now. Not nearly as hard as everyone says it is and I’m in better shape than I’ve ever been! Now just need to get my Model 3 in order to reduce my impact as much as possible.

Going vegan can indeed give some short term benefits as it often means going from a processed "food" diet to better choices, as well as other beneficial changes in lifestyle, such as better sleep and more exercise.

However, longer term, vegan does not provide all the nutrition humans need - you'll get by for several years, but eventually become very sick unless you supplement. If you can bring yourselves to eat some fish a couple of times a week then that's a great choice, otherwise get the right pills to cover the gap: Why You Should Think Twice About Vegetarian and Vegan Diets

Watch The Magic Pill, it's on Netflix.

 

[JRP3]

The only supplement most vegans would need, as well as many meat eaters, is B12. Farm animals are often supplemented with it so meat eaters are getting it as an indirect supplement. Our ancestors got it from dirty food and water, I'd rather take an occasional supplement.

 

[JRP3]

However, longer term, vegan does not provide all the nutrition humans need - you'll get by for several years, but eventually become very sick unless you supplement. If you can bring yourselves to eat some fish a couple of times a week then that's a great choice, otherwise get the right pills to cover the gap: Why You Should Think Twice About Vegetarian and Vegan Diets

So I took the time to look at some of the references used in that article, I wonder if the author of the article actually did the same.

He uses reference 1 to support his statement that "organ meats, meats, fish and shellfish, which are among the most nutrient-dense foods you can eat." However the study said

The meat and the fruit and vegetables food groups had the highest nutritional quality but were associated with highest energy costs.

Regarding calcium he uses reference 5 to support his statement that vegans are often deficient in calcium. However the study also says

A vegetarian diet usually provides a low intake of saturated fat and cholesterol and a high intake of dietary fiber and many health-promoting phytochemicals. This is achieved by an increased consumption of fruits, vegetables, whole-grains, legumes, nuts, and various soy products. As a result of these factors, vegetarians typically have lower body mass index, serum total and low-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels, and blood pressure; reduced rates of death from ischemic heart disease; and decreased incidence of hypertension, stroke, type 2 diabetes, and certain cancers than do nonvegetarians.

His reference 5b which he uses to support his statement about the difficulty of obtaining calcium from plants actually says this

Also, dietary constituents that decrease calcium retention, such as salt, protein, and caffeine, can be high in the vegetarian diet. Although it is possible to obtain calcium balance from a plant-based diet in a Western lifestyle, it may be more convenient to achieve calcium balance by increasing calcium consumption than by limiting other dietary factors.

Obviously meat eaters may also have high levels of salt, protein, and caffeine which may also reduce calcium absorption.

Related, from the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine:

Some cultures consume few or no dairy products and typically ingest fewer than 500 milligrams of calcium per day. However, these people generally have low rates of osteoporosis. Many scientists believe that exercise and other factors have more to do with osteoporosis than calcium intake does.

Plant Based Diet Calcium

I'm not going to take the time to chase down every reference but as is typical with Kresser the article is poorly done and not well supported by the included references. Kresser is an extreme "paleo" organ meat advocate, on the same level as raw fruitarian vegans regarding misinformation in my opinion.

 

[JRP3]

This is a further take down of the Kresser article with a number of good points
Don’t Think Twice About Going Vegan

I thought this line was telling:

This begs the question: If the ideal diet doesn’t require supplements, and Kresser promotes the ideal diet, then why is he selling all types of expensive supplements in his online store?

 

[Chickenlittle]

I do not understand the argument not to use leather. I have no problem with alternative materials though. No cows are slaughtered for hides. They are raised Nd slaughtered for the meat. Throwing away the hides is of no benefit to the cow. If they want to be effective in reducing the cattle industry, they need to attempt to decrease the demand for meat

 

[JRP3]

I think Tesla sees the benefit to the bottom line by reducing options, especially ones that they may feel are going out of favor over time. If they aren't losing sales by eliminating the material from the lineup then it would seem to make sense to do so. The lack of leather seating doesn't seem to have effected sales of any of their products.

 

[replicant]

I do not understand the argument not to use leather. I have no problem with alternative materials though. No cows are slaughtered for hides. They are raised Nd slaughtered for the meat. Throwing away the hides is of no benefit to the cow. If they want to be effective in reducing the cattle industry, they need to attempt to decrease the demand for meat

Would you wear the skin of a murdered person, if there was little less practical alternative (like textile)? Why not?

 

[oneday]

Tanning leather is a chemical intensive process. It is not very environmentally friendly.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/gizmod...ling-the-people-and-places-tha-1572678618/amp

Tl;dr leather tanning has been pushed to third world countries where regulations are less strict. Chromium poisoning and various other cancerous chemical exposures result from tanning. Rivers and areas surrounding leather tanneries are some of the most toxicly polluted in the world. Pretty much the leather industry is no bueno.

 

[Cobbler]

Why vegetable-tanned leather?

Tanning leather is a chemical intensive process. It is not very environmentally friendly.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/gizmod...ling-the-people-and-places-tha-1572678618/amp

Tl;dr leather tanning has been pushed to third world countries where regulations are less strict. Chromium poisoning and various other cancerous chemical exposures result from tanning...

 

[Chickenlittle]

Would you wear the skin of a murdered person, if there was little less practical alternative (like textile)? Why not?

Not durable enough and too thin.

 

[Uncle Paul]

Not sure you can call a synthetic plastic seat covering vegan.

Those products are manufactured from crude oil. Some crude comes from decaying matter, but some also comes from decaying animals (dead dinosaurs). Nobody does DNA testing to determine the source of the crude.

Believe it is a media produced belief that there is something inherently evil in using protein from animals to nurish people.

I believe that vegetables meals are more healty than meat, but beyond that I have no objections to meat protein.

 

[JRP3]

Just so there is less confusion, the concept of being vegan is to minimize harm to animals as much as is practicable. Vegans know that animals are harmed and killed all the time no matter what they do. The idea is that when there are viable alternatives they should be used. Also, oil does not come from dead dinosaurs.

 

[neroden]

So, in order to have a healthy *full* vegan diet, you have to eat a number of very specific foods. Nutrients you are likely to be short on if you're not careful include:
-- B12
-- iron
-- certain amino acids
-- sufficient protein
-- sufficient calories
-- sufficient fat precursors
And those are just the most common.

Someone with no additional problems can stay on a fully vegan diet with no problems if they know their nutrition.

However, if you have allergies, food intolerances, or absorbtion problems with the particular foods which are necessary to get particular nutrients, you may be literally unable to be on a vegan diet healthily. In these cases, generally adding a small amount of meat (a lot less than the traditional 1950s American diet), or sometimes eggs or milk will be sufficient to restore healthy nutrition. This was the case with both of the people I knew who were forced to stop being vegan.

In all the cases I can think of, you can actually get what you need from insects; there's also evidence that some chemicals in insects which are rare in other meat are good for you; and there's actually some evidence that insects don't feel pain the same way vertebrates and octopuses do; so we should probably be eating more insects. But for some reason our culture doesn't like eating insects. :sigh: Anyway.

 

[JRP3]

Yeah bugs were probably a regular part of our evolutionary diet, but I just can't.

 

[neroden]

A friend of mine is raising mealworms. Plan is food. She's still kind of grossed out by them, though she's been doing it for months.