Venting [long issue with car whistle noise]

[dduffey]

Acknowledging this is a bit of a rant and I've not let yet Tesla Service Center make things right (after 2+ years), but want to get it off my chest. When I picked up my 2018 M3 LR RWD I noticed right away a "mosquitto" / "dog whistle" sound and informed them that it was not normal. I had driven several S, X, and 3s before, including renting a 3 for a week, and drove a friends 3 that did not have this sound. It was a "constant" whine and I would guess the inverter. The "mosquitto" sound it banned is some locations because it's so annoying (google it).

I even did a spectrum analyzer after they said it was normal and showed that there is a 18-20khz sound that was louder than wind/road noise. Given that it is at the edge of human hearing in frequency I was not too surprised that they did not hear it "that loudly" and that it was "normal and within spec."

In the end I ended up pulling out the back carpet and trim and used three layers of barrier which reduced the sound to less than road/wind noise. While it is still there if I pay attention it's not a DOG-WISTLE-IN-YOUR-EAR-AS-YOU-DRIVE-THE-ENTIRE-TRIP annoying. More of a someone using a dog whistle outside your window I can ignore sound.

All in all I handled the 2018 case without much hastle or push back. I already considered that I'm a bit of one of the weirdos that can hear the mosquitto sound that others can't. (Sometimes certain electronics like TVs make this sound). And the noise analyzer I did more to prove to myself that I wasn't crazy and something that can be measured as I "fixed" the problem myself.

Fast forward to this week I come across a post where someone was missing the "penthouse perimeter seal" and had similar sounds (hello fellow super hearing power Tesla owner) and was fixed by having that missing seal installed (it requires dropping the HV battery). So I pull out my seat and lift up my layers of barrier and ... drum roll ... no penthouse perimeter seal. It's SO FREAKING ANNOYING to have SC rep after rep tell you "it's all in your head, it's normal, it's within spec.". ARG.

So I filed a SC request to install the missing seal and I get this response "we need to verify with a technician to see if the seal will resolve the noise ... we will perform a test drive with you and listen and verify how to reproduce the concern ... Please note: Noise, vibration, and cosmetic concerns will be quoted with an inspection & diagnostic fee. If the issue is found to be due to a defect in materials or worksmanship, this fee will be waived."

WTF? Need to verify if the seal will fix the noise and need to do test drive AND maybe charge diagnostics? (I sent pictures of the missing seal) ... A SEAL FROM THE FACTORY WAS NOT INSTALLED ... so if the technicians determines the missing seal won't fix the noise issue or think the noise again is "normal" (a ~19khz sound > road/wind at 60mph?!?!?!?) that they will charge me a fee and send me on the Way!?!?!

Thanks for listening. I'm sure that this will get resolved, it's just their initial response is so ... tone deaf. Sorry to get my support here

 

[dduffey]

Here is the graph, y axis is time (seconds), x is frequency and color is dB, car was accelerating so you can see some tire noise going up in frequency as t=0 (the lines kind of going at 30 degrees angle), road bumps are the horizontal pink lines, largely little sound between 10-18 kHz and then a constant whistle at around 18-20kHz. This was "stock" before modifications.

 

[pnwadventures]

Thanks for listening. […] their initial response is so ... tone deaf

I see what you did there. Well played.

 

[TexasTezla]

Absolutely right. If a seal is missing then you are absolutely within your rights to demand it is put on.

 

[dduffey]

I cancelled my appointment with diagnostic fee, and re-scheduled with a picture pointing to the missing seal area and simply stated "this car is missing the penthouse perimeter seal." Didn't say anything about noise as I did in the previous SC request. I'm certain/hoping this one will go through.

 

[jmaddr]

Didn't say anything about noise as I did in the previous SC request. I

This. Great idea. It’s all about the wording.

 

[CarlThompson]

... there is a 18-20khz sound that was louder than wind/road noise. Given that it is at the edge of human hearing ...

If you can hear that as a mature adult human then you have amazing hearing. Generally only people in their teenage years or younger can hear those frequencies. The ability to hear high frequencies deteriorates steadily with age. I'm 52 and I can't hear anything over 13kHz which is pretty normal. If you're not like 16 years old or so, I suspect those are not the frequencies you're hearing.

 

[jboy210]

See if you can hear this. It is a teenager repellent system (the Mosquito) and most people in the early 20s and later hear nothing. Apparently, it is popular in the UK to prevent teens from hanging out (loitering) without buying something from a shop.

 

[TexasTezla]

See if you can hear this. It is a teenager repellent system (the Mosquito) and most people in the early 20s and later hear nothing. Apparently, it is popular in the UK to prevent teens from hanging out (loitering) without buying something from a shop.

I couldn't actually hear the noise but I did feel a pressure change in my ear. I felt the noise rather than hearing it!

 

[dduffey]

If you can hear that as a mature adult human then you have amazing hearing. Generally only people in their teenage years or younger can hear those frequencies. The ability to hear high frequencies deteriorates steadily with age. I'm 52 and I can't hear anything over 13kHz which is pretty normal. If you're not like 16 years old or so, I suspect those are not the frequencies you're hearing.

I once had a TV that produced this sound and I sold it, not knowing at the time that this was a thing. I learned of it when I was at a BBQ restaurant in Austin where the outdoor seating had "anti fly/insect" devices and it was ringing my ears off ... nobody around me could hear and it was very distinctive and paused / restarted about once a second so I could "count" it off. "Do you hear that" (finger tap, tap, tap, tap) ... so I googled it and learned about this high frequency sound that people can't hear.

I don't know what to tell you except yes I can hear very well ... my family is shocked when I tell them I can hear something across the house or in the park, etc. Also the audio spectrum analysis above is pretty obvious that this is what I'm hearing (vs speed related motor noise, etc.). For physics I don't fully understand sound does not travel well above 10kHz and explains why there is a dead zone above 10kHz (completely expected in the graph) ... the ~19kHz sound is _unusual_ and unnatural at this amplitude.

Since youtube audio is compressed, this is the better test (but still dependent on your speaker capabilities), and yes I am over 40 and I hear it:
Mosquito Tone Audibility Sound Test

Edit: Myth 3 – Only people under 25 can hear it
Mythbusting the Mosquito - Musical U

 

[dduffey]

I couldn't actually hear the noise but I did feel a pressure change in my ear. I felt the noise rather than hearing it!

Yep and even if you can't hear it can cause damage, here is a warning on another tone generator site:

"Warning!: People can’t hear sounds < 20 Hz and > 10,000 Hz very well. If you turn up the volume on your device to compensate, you could expose yourself to harmful sound levels and your speakers to harmful currents. To be safe, note the volume level that allows you to listen to a 1,000 Hz tone without discomfort and do not stray too far above this level, even if you can’t hear much – especially in the high range, where your hearing is the most fragile."

Online Tone Generator - generate pure tones of any frequency

www.szynalski.com

 

[St☰v☰]

I'm just curious, can you post the pick of you pointing at the missing seal?

 

[dduffey]

I'm just curious, can you post the pick of you pointing at the missing seal?

It's pretty tight, there should be a rubber seal (light grey) in color, video would do it more justice, and you can feel down and it's just a metal cavity.

 

[dduffey]

So tech called and said that the 2018 M3s (mine is VIN 17xxx) don't have a visible perimeter seal, that it's part of the pack.

They said the only way to verify is drop the pack, so they will first listen to determine if it is within spec and if it is "normal" sounding then they will charge a diagnostic fee.

When I asked several times if my has the old style invisible seal or new seal he kept saying "it probably has the old seal given it's a 2018" ... but could not confirm and just have to assume the old style seal is there in place ...

Edit: So looking at the part catalog, I am not seeing a difference between 2018/newer. In fact it says the penthouse perimeter seal should be installed on "every M3 HV Battery Pack", and doesn't give different instructions for old car model or old packs. If someone would be willing to take off the rear seat of their pre-17k VIN LR RWD Model 3 and look between/take a picture of the area between the penthouse and frame/structure of the car it would be appreciated. I feel I'm getting the run-around.

 

[KenC]

Had a hearing test and I can only hear up to 16kHz, and I did not hear anything in the Youtube video, as expected.

 

[dduffey]

Is the SC being obtuse? They don't have access to the parts catalog?

I will bring it by, but if they determine that there is "no problem" I'm out a couple hundred.

 

[israndy]

Yeah, that's why you report the outcome here, so the rest of us don't have to find out the hard way. In that sense you get notoriety for providing useful content.

 

[dduffey]

Tomorrow is my SC visit. Based on the previous visit, phone, and app messaging I don't have high hopes.

Knowing that hearing is subjective and Tesla changed my SC request to a noise diagnostic I thought of a few ways to visually show there is a problem.

First, I had to remove the mass loaded vynal and fire resistant lining I added under the seat and carpet.

Next, I made some smoke and turned on the AC fresh air.

Then we can see clearly the smoke get sucked (pushed) out of the car through the "penthouse perimeter". It is easier to see on video. If SC disagrees I'll upload a video to YouTube.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Tomorrow is my SC visit. Based on the previous visit, phone, and app messaging I don't have high hopes.

Knowing that hearing is subjective and Tesla changed my SC request to a noise diagnostic I thought of a few ways to visually show there is a problem.

First, I had to remove the mass loaded vynal and fire resistant lining I added under the seat and carpet.

View attachment 752464

Next, I made some smoke and turned on the AC fresh air.

View attachment 752467

Then we can see clearly the smoke get sucked (pushed) out of the car through the "penthouse perimeter". It is easier to see on video. If SC disagrees I'll upload a video to YouTube.

View attachment 752468

I don't know if it helps, but I found others that had motor whine noise issues and their local SC was able to fix by installing a missing seal:
SEAL,PERIMETER,PENTHOUSE,MDL3(1467057-00-C)
What's Normal Front Motor Sound for Model Y?

I know you had a question if older Model 3s had this seal from factory (probably not possible to verify without someone chiming in with a Model 3 of similar manufacturing date), but a TSB that applies to 2018 Model 3 LRs built between approximately August 24, 2018 and September 10, 2018 had that part number listed as part of a HV battery replacement:
https://www.tsbsearch.com/Tesla/SB-19-16-009

You may be able to use that as supporting evidence.

 

[dduffey]

Thanks for the links. Although my Apt 2018 17xxx VIN does not fall into that range it is consistent with the parts catalog that all pack revisions are included.

Although I asked several times on the phone I will ask them what rev of battery I have.