Very frustrated with software limited charging

[Canuck]

I think the UMC is great for occasional use only because it's small and lightweight and great for keeping in the car. It just seem far too lightweight for daily use. It seems to me that a HPWC attached to a 14-50, with the dips set to 40 amps, is safer than using a UMC on a daily basis.

 

[apacheguy]

There is absolutely no issue using a UMC for daily charge needs. I have no need for a HPWC. Mine gets the job done and it works flawlessly. YMMV, obviously.

 

[Canuck]

There is absolutely no issue using a UMC for daily charge needs. I have no need for a HPWC. Mine gets the job done and it works flawlessly. YMMV, obviously.

Mine works fine too. I was just concerned how it would hold out for the length of time I plan to own this vehicle (about 8 years) given the high rate of UMC failures for new ones and how lightweight it looks inside and out. It makes me wonder what the rate of failure will be after a number of years of daily delivering 40 amps. Plus, I charge at just over 40 amps to even out the load on the chargers.

I bet Tesla is concerned about it too, which may be the reason for qwk's problems. Not his UMC, but the software wanting to make sure the load is correct for the UMC.

 

[wycolo]

The 17in screen has a really good voltmeter and ammeter to watch during charging. At onset ( 0 > a few amps) shows the house voltage before serious loading begins. Normally this would 240 volts, and fortunately here it usually is since I have my own largish pole transformer and the only major appliance running might be the fridge. Then as charging scales quickly up to 30A (my max) the voltage will necessarily sag to 235v (240/235v is what I usually see) due to my 300ft cabling from the transformer, and the house wiring (which is short here). If you have less than a 5v drop then you have pretty good wiring!

Watching the volts over time gives an indication of your neighborhood grid strength as significant local loads begin and end. This should be a smooth variation. Any abrupt changes would most likely be from your house or next door, like a water heater, electric range, or a defective appliance/short circuit.

Pretty good test equipment free from Tesla to check out your car's charging profile.

CS-40 evse feeding 30A max
--

 

[FlasherZ]

What if someone lives really close to a generation plant? They won't be able to charge at 40A because of the constant fluctuations. Your unsafe scenario theory is really weak. No other common appliance stops working when there are small voltage surges.

I live really close to a generation plant. I can charge at 40A just fine except in the presence of a misbehaving appliance, overloaded transformer, bad wiring, or a bad component in the car.

No other common appliance draws 40A continuous current for hours upon end while being connected via cord-and-plug. For most homes, the Tesla is the largest electrical load in terms of kWh that most owners' homes will ever see.

 

[qwk]

Tesla disputes the UMC / fire connection, but it did change the software after that fire and fluctuations now cause the car to dial down the amps much more readily than in the past, and they seem to keep tinkering with it. That's qwk's point in starting this thread, I think. I've also read here about, and seen pictures of, burned or melted UMC's 14-50 adapter whereas the plug and socket connected to my HPWC don't get the least bit warm:

Bingo!
Not only did Tesla implement this in the firmware, they keep messing with it. That is my main gripe. One firmware version everything is fine, the next the car can't charge. Tesla keeps messing with firmware, and that's understandable, but things that work great really don't need changed. Regen is another good example.

Living so far from a Service Center, all I wanted was an option to stay on a very stable firmware version, so I could use the car without unexpected problems. It is our family's only vehicle. TO ME, the constant over the air updates are the worst thing about the car, by far. They create too many bugs while not adding huge changes(naming my car doesn't help me one bit). Updates such as individual tire pressure readouts, valet mode etc. would be different, and are possibly worth taking a risk for. I usually don't install the updates, and just ignore the update clock, but many times the simple fact the the car is pinged with a new update introduces a bug. This time it was the car not going to sleep most nights, so I figured I would chance it, and see if loading the update fixed it. It did, but the charging problem surfaced(I did try to reboot screens for the insomnia problem).

Another problem I should point out is the fact that there is no ATT 3G here, so engineers can't even pull logs and possibly fix the issue remotely. I do have WiFi at the office, so that helps, but the car only connects when driven on the lawn next to the router. I should note that all other devices like iPad, iPhone etc. can reach WiFi across the street. Anyway, I'm sure it's easy to live a few miles away from a SC and many Superchargers in California, and think that I'm just a complainer, but it's a totally different world out here. It's like the Wild West.

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My question is still unanswered-- why do you insist this is a firmware issue and it wouldn't have happened if you hadn't updated the firmware? If this is a firmware issue, don't you think there would be a significant number of reports of this happening all of the sudden after the update? Until Tesla finds the source of your problem, I think it would be best to keep an open http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/42243-FW-6-1-turned-my-car-into-useless-junk-%28charging-problems%29http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/42243-FW-6-1-turned-my-car-into-useless-junk-%28charging-problems%29mind about other possible causes. What if they found the charging port was bad and a new one solved your problems?

Prior to FW 5.8.4, the car had a voltage threshold that it would not charge under(around 190V for 240V or 208V service), and it allowed a peak of something like 6mA through the ground before one would get the red chargeports ring, and a no go on charging.

After FW 5.8.4, minimal fluctuations in the Voltage cause the dial back to 30A, or even stopped charging. This changes constantly, so one day you are fine, the next SOL.

The same night after experiencing the problems which birthed this thread, the car charged fine at 40A for three hours. I of course wasn't under pressure to the car charged by a certain time. Murphy's law pretty much guarantees that these problems show up when you are on a tight schedule or at an RV park. That's just the way it is. Imagine plugging in to a 14-50 at an RV park, and taking a nice 1-2 mile walk to get a bite to eat. While eating or even walking there, you check the app, and bam the car stopped charging because of a one time 6V fluctuation at the RV park(these voltage fluctuations happens all the time at RV parks). Now you have to either pray like hell the car starts charging again on it's own, or walk back all pissed off and unplug/replug. Remember, this was not a worry for about the first 2 years of ownership. How would you feel?

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I live really close to a generation plant. I can charge at 40A just fine except in the presence of a misbehaving appliance, overloaded transformer, bad wiring, or a bad component in the car.

No other common appliance draws 40A continuous current for hours upon end while being connected via cord-and-plug. For most homes, the Tesla is the largest electrical load in terms of kWh that most owners' homes will ever see.

Congratulations, your car works fine with this FW. You have no worries. Mine on the other hand all of a sudden doesn't, and I can't and won't live with it, hence this thread.

 

[FlasherZ]

Congratulations, your car works fine with this FW. You have no worries. Mine on the other hand all of a sudden doesn't, and I can't and won't live with it, hence this thread.

My car, like many others, is not very much different from yours (we're even roughly close in VIN #'s, so it's likely our charging systems are entirely the same). I don't understand your blame of the software, when it affects only a small percentage of vehicles -- the variable here being the charging environment or perhaps flaky hardware.

The point is that you are asking Tesla to remove a safety feature of the car because something in your environment trips that safety feature. I believe if you invested the time to find the environmental condition, your problem is solved. I don't believe that turning off the safety feature is ever the right way to handle it. And I don't believe that Tesla should remove a novel safety feature on the largest single load its customers will ever see (in terms of kWh), just because no other appliances do it. I thought we wanted Tesla to be novel, not just like everyone else.

Perhaps Tesla will adjust it a bit so that the effects are reduced, by having the car attempt to clear the problem and retry higher-amperage charging. Perhaps you and Tesla find that there is a problem with the charger and replacing the charging hardware that eliminates the current reduction. Perhaps Tesla will give you the ability to remove the guard on the sawblade, so-to-speak, and allow you to crank your amps up (and maybe they'll just allow us to override our amps to whatever we'd like, so that we can all push our currents wherever we'd like. Or, maybe they just throw caution into the wind and remove the safety checks.

Whichever path is taken, good luck to you - I know it can be frustrating when the results aren't there. I acknowledge our differences in opinion. My best to you.

 

[mackgoo]

When ever I come across an issue, yes the first thing I want to do is complain, it's only natural. At some point though, I need to take steps to resolve the issue. So what have you done to resolve this issue?
You can not charge un interrupted from any source? Does anyone "near" you own a Tesla? Maybe you could both meet at a central point and charge side by side. This may give you some valuable feed back.
Have you brought to Tesla? their open on the week ends. Take the day take a drive, leave out the firm ware thing, just tell them the charging issues your experiencing they'll take it in, probably give you a loaner and your on your way. It would be interesting to see if you still experience these issues with the loaner.
I think you said you have a "built up" 240v plug at work. What does that mean?
One last thing. A few weeks ago I came into a local SC and the station that isn't paired was free. Yahoooo. I plugged in and after a few minutes it interrupted and cycled down then up again. Did this a few more times so I called Tesla they didn't see anything wrong. The interrupting happened a few more times and I gave up and moved to another charger. A week or two latter I was back the golden station was open again and a cruised in and it charged with no issues. May be that one gets more wear and tear because it's not paired and always going max, who knows. It does seem there was an issue with the source.
Anyway get on Tesla and get this worked out.

 

[deonb]

TO ME, the constant over the air updates are the worst thing about the car, by far.

-vs.-

Another problem I should point out is the fact that there is no ATT 3G here, so engineers can't even pull logs and possibly fix the issue remotely. I do have WiFi at the office, so that helps, but the car only connects when driven on the lawn next to the router.

So how is it getting these software update? I assume it wasn't over the air in this case, since you don't have over the air access. So is this an update you got from a service center, then drove home, and then realized it didn't work?

If so, is it an option for you to ask the service center to if they HAVE to update the firmware due to a recall, keep the car overnight to do additional testing (including charge testing), and explain to them how far away you are from a SC when something goes wrong? And if they don't HAVE to update it, then ask them to delay the update until the yearly service, and then do the overnight. That way it will be just like any other car - you just update it once a year.

 

[qwk]

My car, like many others, is not very much different from yours (we're even roughly close in VIN #'s, so it's likely our charging systems are entirely the same). I don't understand your blame of the software, when it affects only a small percentage of vehicles -- the variable here being the charging environment or perhaps flaky hardware.

The point is that you are asking Tesla to remove a safety feature of the car because something in your environment trips that safety feature. I believe if you invested the time to find the environmental condition, your problem is solved. I don't believe that turning off the safety feature is ever the right way to handle it. And I don't believe that Tesla should remove a novel safety feature on the largest single load its customers will ever see (in terms of kWh), just because no other appliances do it. I thought we wanted Tesla to be novel, not just like everyone else.

Perhaps Tesla will adjust it a bit so that the effects are reduced, by having the car attempt to clear the problem and retry higher-amperage charging. Perhaps you and Tesla find thatthere is a problem with the charger and replacing the charging hardware that eliminates the current reduction. Perhaps Tesla will give you the ability to remove the guard on the sawblade, so-to-speak, and allow you to crank your amps up (and maybe they'll just allow us to override our amps to whatever we'd like, so that we can all push our currents wherever we'd like. Or, maybe they just throw caution into the wind and remove the safety checks.

Whichever path is taken, good luck to you - I know it can be frustrating when the results aren't there. I acknowledge our differences in opinion. My best to you.

LOL. Give me a break! Your argument is so weak you have to quote snippets. It all boils down to this. I took a look at the specs of the car, and decided the rewards outweighed the compromises. Anybody that doesn't admit that EV's are a compromise are lying. Guess what? This BS pushes the car into the compromises are not worth it anymore. It's really pretty self explanatory if you read the ENTIRE thread, and take everything into account.

I invite you to sit at an RV park for hours waiting for your car to charge dozens of times, and then increase that time by who knows how long. Are you proposing we rewire all of the nations RV parks? Lol Half the RV parks give the middle finger to EV owners to begin with. Try telling them that there are voltage fluctuations which screw with your cars charging needs. They will throw you off their property. A little common sense goes a long ways here.

IF the UMC had been properly engineered, this thread wouldn't exist. If you disagree, then I have nothing more to say to you.

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-vs.-


So how is it getting these software update? I assume it wasn't over the air in this case, since you don't have over the air access. So is this an update you got from a service center, then drove home, and then realized it didn't work?

If so, is it an option for you to ask the service center to if they HAVE to update the firmware due to a recall, keep the car overnight to do additional testing (including charge testing), and explain to them how far away you are from a SC when something goes wrong? And if they don't HAVE to update it, then ask them to delay the update until the yearly service, and then do the overnight. That way it will be just like any other car - you just update it once a year.

You have that exactly right. I pull up on the grass so I can monitor the charging via the iPhone app when the car needs to be charged by a certain time. That or trips is when the updates are pinged to the car. This one was over wifi at the office.

There was no option for the update last time I was at the SC. I couldn't have the car back without the update, fixed or not. This is the entire issue.

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-vs.-


So how is it getting these software update? I assume it wasn't over the air in this case, since you don't have over the air access. So is this an update you got from a service center, then drove home, and then realized it didn't work?

If so, is it an option for you to ask the service center to if they HAVE to update the firmware due to a recall, keep the car overnight to do additional testing (including charge testing), and explain to them how far away you are from a SC when something goes wrong? And if they don't HAVE to update it, then ask them to delay the update until the yearly service, and then do the overnight. That way it will be just like any other car - you just update it once a year.

You have that exactly right. I pull up on the grass so I can monitor the charging via the iPhone app when the car needs to be charged by a certain time. That or trips is when the updates are pinged to the car. This one was over wifi at the office.

There was no option for the update last time I was at the SC. I couldn't have the car back without the update, fixed or not. This is the entire issue.

 

[ecarfan]

@qwk, I'm wondering if perhaps the Model S is no longer a good fit for your environment. I doubt that Tesla is going to change the firmware current limiting feature that you say is causing you so much trouble. If the cars hardware is not at fault, and you are unable to modify your home charging system, then it seems like the only other thing to do is sell the car. I realize that is not what you want, but you are describing your car as "useless junk" to you. I am confident it would be very useful to someone else.

 

[qwk]

My good buddy is an electrician and he helped me with the plug and wiring. He also helped me build my extension cord for my cabin (as he rolled his eyes and had me label it "EV charging only") and he wired my Clipper Creek CS-60. He initially put in the 14-50 outlet for my UMC. He shook his head at the heat generated by the cable and said it was "mickey mouse" compared to the CC CS-60. I found it odd that the cable was always warm to the touch while charging, and I looked at pictures of burned and melted 14-50 adapters here. When I bought the HPWC, he said it was much better, but I needed to upgrade my electrical panel if I wanted him to install it to run at 80 amps, which I don't really need. He told me that technically it is not a code violation to plug it into the 14-50 because it's connected to a 50 amp breaker and set at 40 amps, which allows for it. Now, with the dip switches being changed, and with the ability to change the dips, it could be considered a code violation. I deal with code violations all the time in my work, and I know there are a lot of grey areas. Not everything is black and white as you seem to suggest.

More importantly, I would never put my family at risk of a fire. I did this to avoid a fire. I am certain I am much safer now than with the flimsy UMC that Tesla is obviously very concerned about -- hence this thread. I also don't buy Tesla's explanation that the UMC was not involved in the fire by reading the logs. Why not look at the device itself? That's what investigator's opine on in fire cause and origin reports. Even it if was totally burned, they can often tell cause and origin by the remnants and burn patterns. Tesla's conduct after the fact in changing the software also speaks volumes to me.

The most tragic thing about this, is Tesla decided to solve the UMC melting issue(all of the melting I have seen, started on the UMC adapter end, by the pins) by using tougher plastic on the adapter side. All of you making excuses for Tesla need to think about this for a minute.

 

[qwk]

@qwk, I'm wondering if perhaps the Model S is no longer a good fit for your environment. I doubt that Tesla is going to change the firmware current limiting feature that you say is causing you so much trouble. If the cars hardware is not at fault, and you are unable to modify your home charging system, then it seems like the only other thing to do is sell the car. I realize that is not what you want, but you are describing your car as "useless junk" to you. I am confident it would be very useful to someone else.

When I bought the car, and up until now, it worked as advertised. So you are saying that it's my fault for trusting Tesla that they not change the specs at their convenience? Lol You have got to be kidding me. It's like blaming a battered wife for being beat by her husband. Unreal.

 

[Canuck]

The most tragic thing about this, is Tesla decided to solve the UMC melting issue(all of the melting I have seen, started on the UMC adapter end, by the pins) by using tougher plastic on the adapter side. All of you making excuses for Tesla need to think about this for a minute.

Yes, that and the firmware changes that are driving you nuts.

 

[NigelM]

@qwk: apologies if I missed it but you did say somewhere up-thread that you had a loaner at one time; did that loaner experience the same problems?

 

[qwk]

@qwk: apologies if I missed it but you did say somewhere up-thread that you had a loaner at one time; did that loaner experience the same problems?

No, because this was pre FW 5.8.4. The other loaner I had when I was on vacation, and I supercharged/120V charged at destination only.

 

[NigelM]

No, because this was pre FW 5.8.4. The other loaner I had when I was on vacation, and I supercharged/120V charged at destination only.

I think one of the clues to getting this to a stable place for you is to get a loaner out there on the latest software and compare side by side. I suspect that if your power source is OK then you have one of those sensitive cars, doesn't make a difference whether it's software or hardware you still need it fixed.

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Mod Note: the OP here doesn't even own an HPWC so I moved the whole discussion on plugs, HPWCs , insurance and NEC code over here -->Putting-a-plug-on-an-HPWC-(Code-Violations-and-Insurance).

 

[qwk]

I think one of the clues to getting this to a stable place for you is to get a loaner out there on the latest software and compare side by side. I suspect that if your power source is OK then you have one of those sensitive cars, doesn't make a difference whether it's software or hardware you still need it fixed.

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Mod Note: the OP here doesn't even own an HPWC so I moved the whole discussion on plugs, HPWCs , insurance and NEC code over here -->Putting-a-plug-on-an-HPWC-(Code-Violations-and-Insurance).

The problem with that is the fact that this was probably not an all the time scenario, but one that happens enough(at the worst times when I must have a charge) to be a deal breaker. This is something I discussed with Jason in depth, because it was very easy to see coming. He was sure that if it happened, I could manually up the amperage one time, and that would be that. Well, not only does that not happen, the charge stops altogether sometimes. This is not something that is acceptable for RV park charging.

 

[bollar]

The problem with that is the fact that this was probably not an all the time scenario, but one that happens enough(at the worst times when I must have a charge) to be a deal breaker. This is something I discussed with Jason in depth, because it was very easy to see coming. He was sure that if it happened, I could manually up the amperage one time, and that would be that. Well, not only does that not happen, the charge stops altogether sometimes. This is not something that is acceptable for RV park charging.

Still, there are members of this forum who use a UMC in environments that would appear to be more challenging than yours and who use RV park charging as often as you do or more -- and they don't report the same problems that you have. You have had charging problems since the first day you owned your car, and aside from a brief period with a specific firmware series where you had no problems, you've had consistent charging issues most of the time.

I do believe there's a fault with your car -- and probably with a group of cars with similar configurations and I hope Tesla finds the fix for you. I do think the advice to have a long-term loaner with the current firmware is the best way to rule out the wiring at your charging location and RV parks.

It would be interesting to know why the specific firmware that worked for you actually worked. Shame we'll never know the answer.

 

[NigelM]

This is not something that is acceptable for RV park charging.

Owning an RV myself (sorry about the gas folks but it's used for horse shows) I know that RV parks can experience quite some fluctuations but my own experience with taking our Model S along is that if we get a good starting situation (that might involve trying a couple of different outlets) then we have always been good from then on. Just for comparison also, we have a notoriously dodgy power supply (the overhead lines basically run through forest before they get here) and living in hurricane country I have a back-up 30kw generator; when that generator runs the LED bulbs in the house often flicker and dimmer switches are basically useless if they're not full on but our Model S has continued to charge without dialing down on all FW versions. When power has gone out the car stops charging but has re-started when the generator kicked on automatically; even our AC systems seem to struggle more with power fluctuations than the car does.

I get your point about the algorithms etc. but from everything I've read here I'm fairly certain you have an outlier and the problem is quite possibly more than software only; otherwise many more of us would be experiencing problems.