Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register
  • We just completed a significant update, but we still have some fixes and adjustments to make. Please see this thread for more details and to find out how to revert to the old design. Cheers!

Vision only MYL FSD hard braking at lights

I got my vision only MYL in June 2021 and then I purchased FSD package ($10,000). Since I bought the car I have been having AP problems, like phantom braking, forward collision warnings. Recently (since one week), when the car goes through the traffic lights, sometime it suddenly applies a hard brake after going through the intersection, which is very dangerous. This has happened at least 3 or 4 times in last four days. Yesterday it happened while car was travelling at 60 mph, I was lucky nobody rear-ended me. Its so counter-intuitive having autopilot and FSD, I need to be extra careful.

Have anyone of you experiencing this? I have complained to Tesla multiple times, calibrated camera multiple times without any improvement. Per Tesla service center car is operating as it is designed to operate.
 
Upvote 0

Tam

Well-Known Member
Nov 25, 2012
9,746
8,894
Visalia, CA
I got my vision only MYL in June 2021 and then I purchased FSD package ($10,000). Since I bought the car I have been having AP problems, like phantom braking, forward collision warnings. Recently (since one week), when the car goes through the traffic lights, sometime it suddenly applies a hard brake after going through the intersection, which is very dangerous. This has happened at least 3 or 4 times in last four days. Yesterday it happened while car was travelling at 60 mph, I was lucky nobody rear-ended me. Its so counter-intuitive having autopilot and FSD, I need to be extra careful.

Have anyone of you experiencing this? I have complained to Tesla multiple times, calibrated camera multiple times without any improvement. Per Tesla service center car is operating as it is designed to operate.

It looks like the undesirable brakes happen at traffic lights. How about in places that have no traffic lights, do you experience phantom brakes too?
 
It looks like the undesirable brakes happen at traffic lights. How about in places that have no traffic lights, do you experience phantom brakes too?
Yes I do
Is this after seeing stopping for traffic light control etc message and confirming it safe to proceed with stalk or accelerator?
yes it happens even after I confirm for it to safe to proceed
 

Tam

Well-Known Member
Nov 25, 2012
9,746
8,894
Visalia, CA

Sony for all the undesirable brakes.

I prefer not to use the words phantom brakes in cases that we can figure the trigger factors.

In your case, you associate it with traffic lights.and other unknown causes.

For me:

Overhead signs, bridges, overpass

Parked cars on the sides that are not blocking the path

Car in front turning

Wrong GPS coded speed limit.

Wrong application of speed limit (should continue to drive at 45 mph and not 25 mph because no school/kids at that time)

Repeatable brakes at specific locations for unknown reasons...

Before the deletion of radar, some people think getting rid of radar and switching to pure vision would solve the problem.

I have doubts because Tesla FSD progress has been slow comparing with all the enthusiasm (RoboTaxis with no drivers in 2020).

That's how it works in Tesla driving automation, these problems will be solved but I doubt that it will be soon.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Cheburashka
It looks like the undesirable brakes happen at traffic lights. How about in places that have no traffic lights, do you experience phantom brakes too?
Yes I do
Is this after seeing stopping for traffic light control etc message and confirming it safe to proceed with stalk or accelerator?
yes it happens even after I confirm for it to safe to proceed
Sony for all the undesirable brakes.

I prefer not to use the words phantom brakes in cases that we can figure the trigger factors.

In your case, you associate it with traffic lights.and other unknown causes.

For me:

Overhead signs, bridges, overpass

Parked cars on the sides that are not blocking the path

Car in front turning

Wrong GPS coded speed limit.

Wrong application of speed limit (should continue to drive at 45 mph and not 25 mph because no school/kids at that time)

Repeatable brakes at specific locations for unknown reasons...

Before the deletion of radar, some people think getting rid of radar and switching to pure vision would solve the problem.

I have doubts because Tesla FSD progress has been slow comparing with all the enthusiasm (RoboTaxis with no drivers in 2020).

That's how it works in Tesla driving automation, these problems will be solved but I doubt that it will be soon.
wow you just summed up all the problems I am facing! I stopped using autopilot when cars are parked on the street. Which model do you bison only?
 

Tam

Well-Known Member
Nov 25, 2012
9,746
8,894
Visalia, CA
...wow you just summed up all the problems I am facing! I stopped using autopilot when cars are parked on the street. Which model do you bison only?..

No. Mine are radar-equipped 2017 Model X and 2018 Model 3 and those radar-equipped phantom brakes are the same as current radarless pure vision like yours too.

I forgot one more for pure vision that doesn't happen with my radar version:

Cresting hill/mountain

Phantom brakes can be very stressful but I've learned how to manage it.

For example, I memorize specific known stretches of roads and get my foot ready on the pedal.

Tesla technology will get better to solve it but the question is when.

Vision/AI has progressed by leaps and bounds but please note that some cities ban its facial recognition due to unacceptable error rates. I suspect that's the same here with phantom brakes.

Current radar is too crude to distinguish a dangerous obstacle (parked firetruck) or a harmless overpass bridge. A new generation of radar is much better but we won't know until they are in the market.

I think there has been a cure for phantom brakes with current technology: LIDAR as in Waymo practice.

Vision needs to make sense of pixels in a picture so it can be done but would take lots of time and computing power to solve it.

Current radar is very bad at telling harmful from benign obstacles.

LIDAR uses laser beams to get the distance and by comparing different distances, it can tell instantly how far, how thick or thin (paper/plastic trashes), how big or small, and thus how safe or dangerous to proceed with the drive.

The math for LIDAR is already there but not for Vision and radar that still need a better algorithm for our purpose.
 

Saxgod

Thread Necromancer
May 3, 2019
250
151
Texas
I got my vision only MYL in June 2021 and then I purchased FSD package ($10,000). Since I bought the car I have been having AP problems, like phantom braking, forward collision warnings. Recently (since one week), when the car goes through the traffic lights, sometime it suddenly applies a hard brake after going through the intersection, which is very dangerous. This has happened at least 3 or 4 times in last four days. Yesterday it happened while car was travelling at 60 mph, I was lucky nobody rear-ended me. Its so counter-intuitive having autopilot and FSD, I need to be extra careful.

Have anyone of you experiencing this? I have complained to Tesla multiple times, calibrated camera multiple times without any improvement. Per Tesla service center car is operating as it is designed to operate.
Definitely experienced. All behaviors that are “normal” for “FSD Beta” features. I turned off the stoplight control because of the blinking yellow caution lights on highways causing the car to slam the brakes on.
 

Electroman

Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
Aug 18, 2012
6,484
7,778
TX
What you are all driving is not 'FSD Beta'. None of you in this thread are driving FSD Beta. You are just driving normal AP with two extra features: Stop signs/Traffic light control & lane changes.

I have seen a a lot of FSD beta videos in Youtube and none of them AFAIK have complained about phantom breaking. So hopefully it is fixed in real FSD.

As for me, I use regular AP (no FSD package) and I have not encountered any phantom breaking at all. But that could just be the roads I travel have no conditions that cause such behavior.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sigma4Life

AndreP

Member
Apr 22, 2021
255
250
United States
What you are all driving is not 'FSD Beta'. None of you in this thread are driving FSD Beta. You are just driving normal AP with two extra features: Stop signs/Traffic light control & lane changes.

I have seen a a lot of FSD beta videos in Youtube and none of them AFAIK have complained about phantom breaking. So hopefully it is fixed in real FSD.

As for me, I use regular AP (no FSD package) and I have not encountered any phantom breaking at all. But that could just be the roads I travel have no conditions that cause such behavior.
There is definitely unnecessary braking behavior at times in scattered among the FSD Beta videos, but it doesn't seem to be a huge problem; however, I don't know if that means FSD Beta solves phantom braking. We need to consider why phantom braking happens, and I understand it as a false positive response to something the system perceives as an impending threat but actually isn't.

The question becomes whether FSD Beta is better at determining whether something is a threat (object in the drive path instead of a shadow or whatever) or whether FSD Beta is simply less sensitive to those things. I'm leaning towards the latter as we've seen FSD Beta happily plow towards objects/obstructions, and that's part of why FSD Beta testers need to be extra vigilant and why we have the safety score etc.

Do AP and FSD Beta have fundamentally different OEDRs? I doubt it, I'm inclined to think FSD Beta generates less false positives because sensitivity was ramped down because it's not deployed freely as production software. And I wouldn't be surprised if this is at least part of why the "single stack" is being pushed out further than was initially planned.
 

Products we're discussing on TMC...

About Us

Formed in 2006, Tesla Motors Club (TMC) was the first independent online Tesla community. Today it remains the largest and most dynamic community of Tesla enthusiasts. Learn more.

Do you value your experience at TMC? Consider becoming a Supporting Member of Tesla Motors Club. As a thank you for your contribution, you'll get nearly no ads in the Community and Groups sections. Additional perks are available depending on the level of contribution. Please visit the Account Upgrades page for more details.


SUPPORT TMC
Top