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Volkswagen bags Autopilot program manager Alexandre Haag

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@AnxietyRanger,
I want the system to make me a much better driver, but I don't really expect any system to avoid potholes and anticipate local wildlife running into the road.

Yep, a system that makes you a better driver is by definition are drivers's aid. That is what I expect EAP to be for a long time... actually, I think Tesla's FSD - counter-intuitively - to be a driver's aid for a long time. Those first FSD (aka non-EAP) features Elon said would come out in 3-6 months (from some time ago) certainly are not expected to take responsibility for the car, are they? So they will remain Level 2... driver's aids.

The way Tesla goes about things, them moving on from an ever-changing "you are responsible" beta AP to "the car is responsible" Level 3-5 self-driving seems a big leap. It is a big leap for Audi too, but they have been practicing and working on it for the better part of a decade, if not longer.

When will Tesla be ready to take that leap? No matter how advanced the actual software gets, it is still going to be a leap for them.

Who will be the first at Level 3?
 
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Who will be the first at Level 3?
It will be something of an oxymoron because it depends on the definition. Just because a system can drive better than my drunk neighbor does not make it an attractive system for me.

When will a system drive better than the system+me ? Until then, I'll take driver assist. I understand EAP in the insurance sense of the word looking at large groups ... but I self-insure to a large degree, meaning I expect my driving to be much better than average. To the extent that I can mitigate my risk of driving with aides I am all for them, but I have NO desire to pay the average rate, even if it allows me to nap while my neighbor equivalent drives me to work. This is not simply a case of devolving back to the average insurance rate in return for convenience, it is my valuation of having less than average risk by staying involved as a driver. I value my safety and health waaay more than the convenience.
 
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It will be something of an oxymoron because it depends on the definition. Just because a system can drive better than my drunk neighbor does not make it an attractive system for me.

The levels are fairly well defined and understood. Level 3 means "eyes off". Currently EAP is actually not really even Level 2 ("hands off"), though AP1 has been...

This is what the new Audi A8 promises later this year:

Wikipedia said:
Level 3 (”eyes off”): The driver can safely turn their attention away from the driving tasks, i.e. the driver can do texting or watch a movie. The vehicle will handle situations that call for an immediate response, like emergency braking. The driver must still be prepared to intervene within some limited time, specified by the manufacturer, when called upon by the vehicle to do so.

Autonomous car - Wikipedia
 
@AnxietyRanger,
You are not following my argument. 'Autonomy' always has a reference point. And it is never a comparison of
system vs system+me

In fact it is not even a safety comparison. It is cost to the insurance company for a group of system controlled cars Vs cost to the insurance company for a group of unassisted, driver controlled cars.
 
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Yes, I believe the 2017 released Audi A8 traffic jam assist has Level 3 up to 60 kph, so I guess 37 mph? It is intended for traffic jam conditions on highways.

However, more important than such details is what it is the harbringer of. It is the first car with Audi's self-driving hardware installed. Consider it Audi's first AP2 car - with the exception that Audi does not ship partial software, no work in progresses. Perhaps it will not get any better through constant software updates (or maybe it will), but it will get better through subsequent model years at the very least. This is the first use of a completely new autonomous platform from Audi. They are conservative because they have chosen to be responsible for it, but already that hardware could do much more if they so chose.

Most importantly, so far it seems it will be the first production car that allows you to relinquish control as well as attention and that does take responsibility for the car, even if for limited periods of time. Tesla of course has a chance at beating Audi at this still because they have the hardware out there already, but from the EAP of today the leap to a late 2017 EAP that you could read a book with seems ginormous. Optimists can of course have faith in that secondary codebase...

Everything's a harbinger of the future. AP2 is a harbinger of the future, etc. All we know is Audi says that at some point in the future they'll have a car doing Level 3 up to 37 mph. But I just read another piece which says a 2017 release of the 2018 A8 is not even guaranteed by Audi at this point and it may slip to 2018 for an actual release date.

As always I'll compare Tesla to what is available at the time. For now - no competition. If by the time the A8 is released it is functionally superior in real life driving to Tesla's latest release at the time then that's great for competition. We shall see. At this point it looks to me like Cadillac is the only real competition this year. 37 mph is a parlor trick useful for shirt spurts in Los Angeles but even in LA traffic exceeds that many hours during the day.
 
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Please do. Your incessant complaining of the same thing over and over in every topic, with several posts in each topic repeating the same, gets a little tiring.

You deserve an Audi.

A next-generation Audi A8 does not sound like a terrible punishment. Can I haz one too? :)

Perhaps the one with the Japanese rice-cooker in the back? (I wonder if they'll bring that to the next-gen.)
 
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Everything's a harbinger of the future. AP2 is a harbinger of the future, etc. All we know is Audi says that at some point in the future they'll have a car doing Level 3 up to 37 mph. But I just read another piece which says a 2017 release of the 2018 A8 is not even guaranteed by Audi at this point and it may slip to 2018 for an actual release date.

As always I'll compare Tesla to what is available at the time. For now - no competition. If by the time the A8 is released it is functionally superior in real life driving to Tesla's latest release at the time then that's great for competition. We shall see. At this point it looks to me like Cadillac is the only real competition this year. 37 mph is a parlor trick useful for shirt spurts in Los Angeles but even in LA traffic exceeds that many hours during the day.

Absolutely fair. The only thing that today compares to an AP1 is the Cadillac and the only thing that compares to AP2 is the local village drunk.

The future is the future, we shall see how the dices roll there.
 
Everything's a harbinger of the future. AP2 is a harbinger of the future, etc. All we know is Audi says that at some point in the future they'll have a car doing Level 3 up to 37 mph. But I just read another piece which says a 2017 release of the 2018 A8 is not even guaranteed by Audi at this point and it may slip to 2018 for an actual release date.

As always I'll compare Tesla to what is available at the time. For now - no competition. If by the time the A8 is released it is functionally superior in real life driving to Tesla's latest release at the time then that's great for competition. We shall see. At this point it looks to me like Cadillac is the only real competition this year. 37 mph is a parlor trick useful for shirt spurts in Los Angeles but even in LA traffic exceeds that many hours during the day.

Its a myth that tesla autopilot doesn't have any competition.
Tesla continues to be a breeding ground for myths.

For example 2017 Volvo Pilot Assist 2 (It even handles curves better than AP1 and AP2). There's no dumb braking and not recognizing car infront, etc... Obviously Volvo doesn't have the cult following that Tesla has so there are no thousands of video of their pilot assist 2 randomly driving around.



rain/snow/sleet

local road

huge bend

@AnxietyRanger
@stopcrazypp
 
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While that Volvo system is still Level 2 - it actually seems to be real Level 2 in that it is hands off (just not eyes off Level 3 as Audi promises for later this year).

VERY impressive that first video. I believe that capability is better than AP1 and AP2 currently in pretty much every way, no?

AP2 is more like Level 1, it is not Level 2 (hands off) in any meaningful way at this time.
 
20-minute hot take: 2017 Volvo S90 Pilot Assist
While that Volvo system is still Level 2 - it actually seems to be real Level 2 in that it is hands off (just not eyes off Level 3 as Audi promises for later this year).

VERY impressive that first video. I believe that capability is better than AP1 and AP2 currently in pretty much every way, no?

AP2 is more like Level 1, it is not Level 2 (hands off) in any meaningful way at this time.

Well Volvo still does have a 15-30 seconds time limit. Which can obviously be easily defeated to allow unlimited time if you wanted to.
 
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Very nice @Bladerskb.

To be clear, my message above to @calisnow was more an acknowledgement that Audi's claims are in the future and thus vaporware until released.

Your addition of Volvo to the conversation was a useful new angle of course. Nice videos, thanks!

Completely understand, I wasn't even really responding to you. Was mainly responding to @calisnow and only @ you to further the discussion seeing as you replied to him. Plus I completely agree with your posts concerning Tesla's FSD and EAP development and driver responsibility. I think a lot of tesla fans will be surprised when they discover that a fully feature complete EAP is still simply a lane following and adaptive cruise control system that just replaced its reliance from ultrasonic to cameras for lane changing.

Sure EAP will make lane changes by it self when the lanes are completely empty, which is quite easy. it won't however negotiate lane changes in tight slow moving situations. Its nothing else but a replacement of reliance on ultrasonic for performing lane changes to cameras.

It will see have problems with things it has always had in AP1.

For example:

While that Volvo system is still Level 2 - it actually seems to be real Level 2 in that it is hands off (just not eyes off Level 3 as Audi promises for later this year).

VERY impressive that first video. I believe that capability is better than AP1 and AP2 currently in pretty much every way, no?

AP2 is more like Level 1, it is not Level 2 (hands off) in any meaningful way at this time.

I see Autopilot as a limited L2 in the same sense that I see Audi L3 as a limited L3 (because of its 37 MPH and lead car requirement).
All signs point to GM supercruise being the first true L2 system and Nissan being the first true L3 system.

Right now we have Tesla AP1 and Volvo Pilot Assist 2 at the same level and Mercedes Drive Pilot 4.5 joining them later in the year.
 
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I completely agree with your posts concerning Tesla's FSD and EAP development and driver responsibility. I think a lot of tesla fans will be surprised when they discover that a fully feature complete EAP is still simply a lane following and adaptive cruise control system that just replaced its reliance from ultrasonic to cameras for lane changing.

Sure EAP will make lane changes by it self when the lanes are completely empty, which is quite easy. it won't however negotiate lane changes in tight slow moving situations. Its nothing else but a replacement of reliance on ultrasonic for performing lane changes to cameras.

Agreed. I don't remember who said it and what their source was, but there was talk that EAP really is basically about fulfilling the publicly stated goals of AP1 in the end. A bit like each iteration of P85DL, P90DL and P100D have been fulfilling missed promises on P85D and then subsequent Performance versions that were not meeting their publicly stated specs. This seems to be the Tesla way: give a bit (or a lot) too outrageous specs to the public and once you are unable to fulfill them, release an upgraded product that (perhaps) does and move the conversation onwards in that manner.

So in that sense I think we can expect to EAP to eventually include, once they can reach AP1 parity first, basically that ramp-to-ramp motorway driving system, with front cameras that can read traffic signs and perhaps lights and with blind-spot detection that eventually will actuall work. Finally, it will also allow you to summon your car "to the curb" as AP1 once was said to do, at least in some relatively simple (but more complex than AP1) scenarios. A few of these improvements I expect will still roll out to AP1 as well, namely some of the ramp-to-ramp stuff, but for some things Tesla said AP1 would do it simply lacks the sensors/cameras to do reliably.

This is also why I am pretty certain FSD on AP2 will meet the same fate. Eventually AP3 hardware will come along to fulfill the promises FSD on AP2 can not meet (e.g. the car picking you up from another city) and the conversation moves forwards. Elon mentioned 12-18 months at some point. So perhaps in the second half of 2018, once Model 3 ramp-up is going well, they will introduce additional hardware capabilities and AP2 becomes a limited subset of that system. There is of course still the chance that Tesla may already introduce some changes in Q3/2017 that Model 3 gets from the start and Model S/X at the same time, but I guess the 12-18 months doesn't fit that speculation.

I see Autopilot as a limited L2 in the same sense that I see Audi L3 as a limited L3 (because of its 37 MPH and lead car requirement).
All signs point to GM supercruise being the first true L2 system and Nissan being the first true L3 system.

Right now we have Tesla AP1 and Volvo Pilot Assist 2 at the same level and Mercedes Drive Pilot 4.5 joining them later in the year.

Good points, though I'd say every system seen so far is limited in some fashion and what we are seeing there is just continued improvements at making those limitations less. For me the distinction between Level 1 and 2 simply is, can I take hands off for reasonable periods of time. Level 3, can I take eyes off for same. Level 4, can I take a nap. Level 5, could the car ship without a steering wheel.

I fully expect that in all these instances the driver's aid or self-driving may refuse to initiate or may stop working in some circumstances, which may change from car to car. But it has to have reasonable functionality given its level and graceful fallback given its level. For example, an AP2 Tesla Level 4 car (assuming it might get there one day) could refuse to drive in some blizzard where its cameras can't see sufficiently (a limitation I can't see the hardware being able to get around as it is), but it can't for example just disengage when I'm taking that nap were that blizzard to occour enroute - it should be reasonably able to navigate to a safe place and stop before doing so.

For example the Audi self-driving system, as someone who has followed the company for many years now, they have been developing and miniaturizing the hardware and maturing the software for a better part of a decade now (in public, perhaps much longer in private). It has been a completely separate development from their basic driver's aids that have been shipping in the meanwhile (maybe a bit like Tesla's separate EAP and FSD codebases but been going on for much longer). For me the first car to ship with this hardware and software is a very big deal, because I know its background.

What that big deal means, Audi has simply selected a subset of that already existing functionality they feel they can take 100% responsibility for. They have said they are very conservative about it, which is basically the opposite of how Tesla goes about Autopilot. Their ability to ramp this up, though, is - I expect - quite dramatic. It wouldn't surprise me if Audi already had a Level 5 capable prototype and by that mean something that in an extremely progressive company might already be shipping to customers, not just something you could make a, say, coast-to-coast demo with.
 
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Agreed. I don't remember who said it and what their source was, but there was talk that EAP really is basically about fulfilling the publicly stated goals of AP1 in the end. A bit like each iteration of P85DL, P90DL and P100D have been fulfilling missed promises on P85D and then subsequent Performance versions that were not meeting their publicly stated specs. This seems to be the Tesla way: give a bit (or a lot) too outrageous specs to the public and once you are unable to fulfill them, release an upgraded product that (perhaps) does and move the conversation onwards in that manner.

So in that sense I think we can expect to EAP to eventually include, once they can reach AP1 parity first, basically that ramp-to-ramp motorway driving system, with front cameras that can read traffic signs and perhaps lights and with blind-spot detection that eventually will actuall work. Finally, it will also allow you to summon your car "to the curb" as AP1 once was said to do, at least in some relatively simple (but more complex than AP1) scenarios. A few of these improvements I expect will still roll out to AP1 as well, namely some of the ramp-to-ramp stuff, but for some things Tesla said AP1 would do it simply lacks the sensors/cameras to do reliably.

This is also why I am pretty certain FSD on AP2 will meet the same fate. Eventually AP3 hardware will come along to fulfill the promises FSD on AP2 can not meet (e.g. the car picking you up from another city) and the conversation moves forwards. Elon mentioned 12-18 months at some point. So perhaps in the second half of 2018, once Model 3 ramp-up is going well, they will introduce additional hardware capabilities and AP2 becomes a limited subset of that system. There is of course still the chance that Tesla may already introduce some changes in Q3/2017 that Model 3 gets from the start and Model S/X at the same time, but I guess the 12-18 months doesn't fit that speculation.

precisely.


Good points, though I'd say every system seen so far is limited in some fashion and what we are seeing there is just continued improvements at making those limitations less. For me the distinction between Level 1 and 2 simply is, can I take hands off for reasonable periods of time. Level 3, can I take eyes off for same. Level 4, can I take a nap. Level 5, could the car ship without a steering wheel.

I fully expect that in all these instances the driver's aid or self-driving may refuse to initiate or may stop working in some circumstances, which may change from car to car. But it has to have reasonable functionality given its level and graceful fallback given its level. For example, an AP2 Tesla Level 4 car (assuming it might get there one day) could refuse to drive in some blizzard where its cameras can't see sufficiently (a limitation I can't see the hardware being able to get around as it is), but it can't for example just disengage when I'm taking that nap were that blizzard to occour enroute - it should be reasonably able to navigate to a safe place and stop before doing so.

For example the Audi self-driving system, as someone who has followed the company for many years now, they have been developing and miniaturizing the hardware and maturing the software for a better part of a decade now (in public, perhaps much longer in private). It has been a completely separate development from their basic driver's aids that have been shipping in the meanwhile (maybe a bit like Tesla's separate EAP and FSD codebases but been going on for much longer). For me the first car to ship with this hardware and software is a very big deal, because I know its background.

What that big deal means, Audi has simply selected a subset of that already existing functionality they feel they can take 100% responsibility for. They have said they are very conservative about it, which is basically the opposite of how Tesla goes about Autopilot. Their ability to ramp this up, though, is - I expect - quite dramatic. It wouldn't surprise me if Audi already had a Level 5 capable prototype and by that mean something that in an extremely progressive company might already be shipping to customers, not just something you could make a, say, coast-to-coast demo with.

I don't trust audi even with their public "Jack" prototype. They are not even testing in California. Their ADAS offering for example is among the worst and is locked to under 35mph I believe. That doesn't leave me with a lot of confidence. I would even suggest that supercruise could even surpass it in safety and useability. GM describtion make it sound like they have a L3 in their hands that they are fielding as L2 and the only problem being it lacks redundancy in lidar. You would want your customer to have their hands on the wheel ready not eating a burger, fiddling with the radio, on the phone, reaching for something,etc. All what GM wants you to do.

However yes I do understand that L2 is hands off and L3 is eyes off. But 100% hands off is essentially borderline a L3 test car. Again if supercruise were to work 100% of the time. (GM says they tested Super it on every mile of mapped highway)

Nissan on the other hand I trust more. They also have the 3rd best SDC at 160 per disengagement as of November 2016.
And they plan on doing L3 that is a lot more useable than audi, as you can change lanes and it also isn't limited by speed.
nissan-propilot-2-750x359.jpg


Here's a video:

 
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I don't trust audi even with their public "Jack" prototype. They are not even testing in California. Their ADAS offering for example is among the worst and is locked to under 35mph I believe. That doesn't leave me with a lot of confidence. I would even suggest that supercruise could even surpass it in safety and useability. GM describtion make it sound like they have a L3 in their hands that they are fielding as L2 and the only problem being it lacks redundancy in lidar. You would want your customer to have their hands on the wheel ready not eating a burger, fiddling with the radio, on the phone, reaching for something,etc. All what GM wants you to do.

However yes I do understand that L2 is hands off and L3 is eyes off. But 100% hands off is essentially borderline a L3 test car. Again if supercruise were to work 100% of the time. (GM says they tested Super it on every mile of mapped highway)

Nissan on the other hand I trust more. They also have the 3rd best SDC at 160 per disengagement as of November 2016.
And they plan on doing L3 that is a lot more useable than audi, as you can change lanes and it also isn't limited by speed.

Good info on Nissan etc. and we are certainly in agreement about many things.

A couple of points:

One, on Audi, I do think our perspectives differ a bit. I find Audi's current ADAS implementations and California testing rather irrelevant in a way, because they are not representative and because their focus has been different. First of all, no car of their's has yet featured that multi-year self-driving hardware and software, the new 2017 Audi A8 will be the first one. Second of all, clearly they are aiming at Germany first (and EU second) on self-driving. Our mileage may thus vary based on where we are.

Second, on the borderline Level 3 question, to me the jump from Level 2 to Level 3 is really defined by how the manufacturer is willing to label it. It has legal ramifications, responsibility ramifications and that means it has trust ramifications. Namely, for me the trust in the system goes up immensely if a) I trust it they way I feel it driving and b) manufacturer, who knows more about it than me, trusts it enough to say I can read a book and if they also say that c) they will even take legal responsibility for the car's driving in accidents (like Audi has said), that adds to my level of trust.

Personally, I doubt I would read a book until at least a) and b) happen. If all three, a), b) and c) happen, that would give me a lot of confidence. If only b) and c) happen, yet on a) to me the car seems to drive like a drunkard/AP2, I wouldn't trust it, of course.
 
In my view, the difference between level 2 and 3 is much more than marketing labeling or legal responsibility. Level 2 requires the driver to make the final determination if the system needs to be overridden due to road conditions, obstacles, traffic, etc. For level 3 the system can determine on its own if the driver needs to take over. Level 3 or 4 are more like a human co-pilot in an aircraft. Level 2 is like an aircraft autopilot.

To get to level 3 more sensors and much improved AI software and processing is required.

Also, level 2 does not require "hands off steering wheel." That is a myth. Level 2 requires the system to steer. Many systems do this today, including Tesla's AP1 and AP2 hardware. Keeping hands on wheel while the system steers is my preferred way for the system to insure I am paying attention. Unlike the Cadillac system, when I need to take over, I can do it instantly, with no delay to grab the wheel.

https://www.sae.org/misc/pdfs/automated_driving.pdf

GSP
 
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