beeeerock
Active Member
Yeah, that's probably the most likely material. Good news is you can build up immunity over time...
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Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500,000 Vehicles Over Emissions Software
- Thread starter hockeythug
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The latest turn, with Horn's departure and NADA's Alan Brown threatening dealer lawsuits, I think goes beyond what many wish to happen to VW. I'd rather they hit the road, too, than get away with re-writing the Clean Air Act. That doesn't mean this whole thing isn't a stupid shame, affecting a lot of people.
THIS LATEST wrinkle does, it appears to me, provide an immense amount of ammunition for those who advocate DIRECT, MANUFACTURER-OWNED sales of their automotive products to the public, rather than going through the medium of independent car dealers. Were Volkswagen to be the owner of the 600+ United States sales locations, it would feel far, far more strongly the impact of its misdeeds.
Inasmuch as it is those dealers who - were this exit to come to pass - will have to share in VW's financial debacle, there is that much more incentive for VW to act thusly. Put another way - and putting forth numbers for illustrative purposes only, as I've no inkling of what the amounts could be - out of a total cost of $10billion, perhaps $5bn would redound to VW and $5bn would come off the dealers' noses. If VW owned the distribution, all $10bn would be its burden.
Therefore, VW would have had more skin in the game - AND FEWER POLITICALLY-CONNECTED yellers and screamers - thus that much more likely not to have done the evil deed from the outset.
The prosecution rests....other than pondering out loud: is there any automotive company that DOES advocate direct sales? Just wondering.
Inasmuch as it is those dealers who - were this exit to come to pass - will have to share in VW's financial debacle, there is that much more incentive for VW to act thusly. Put another way - and putting forth numbers for illustrative purposes only, as I've no inkling of what the amounts could be - out of a total cost of $10billion, perhaps $5bn would redound to VW and $5bn would come off the dealers' noses. If VW owned the distribution, all $10bn would be its burden.
Therefore, VW would have had more skin in the game - AND FEWER POLITICALLY-CONNECTED yellers and screamers - thus that much more likely not to have done the evil deed from the outset.
The prosecution rests....other than pondering out loud: is there any automotive company that DOES advocate direct sales? Just wondering.
beeeerock
Active Member
adiggs
Well-Known Member
This additional point reinforces for me, one of my core investing theses in Tesla - direct sales by Tesla to the consumer. One easy milestone for me to recognize that will cause a reevaluation (not necessarily a sale) of my TSLA position, is Tesla opening a single franchised dealership anywhere in the US.
I believe the first would be the beginning of a rapid slide down the slippery slope.
I know there are issues for Tesla to build out a nationwide sales network that can sell and deliver a million cars a year (or whatever big number you like).
Direct sales to consumers, keep Tesla's interests and my interests as a consumer aligned. As an investor in the company, I like the direct connection and link between consumer and manufacturer alignment. I believe (and I know I might be wrong, but it's my 2nd largest individual holding, so I'm acting on the belief) that strong alignment between company and customer is an important competitive advantage for Tesla. I see GM and NADA's behavior throughout the country as reinforcement of that belief - I believe that GM and NADA also believe that Tesla's business model, today, is the superior business model.
(Sidebar - a seemingly easy and impossible to avoid change I believe Tesla must make, is to start training and certifying repair shops that want to get into the Tesla repair gig. To me, that would include being able to take my Tesla to these shops for warranty and recall repairs.)
VW leaving the US market is a bigger step than I would have given them credit of conceiving. Doing so would only address potential future issues of the brand being damaged beyond repair in the US market, and wouldn't do anything for the liabilities accrued by their business dealings already practiced in the country.
The idea that VW is heading to bankruptcy court so they can keep the company alive, while putting a ceiling on the cost of this cheating scandal, seems increasingly unavoidable to me. I really don't see a way for the company to find a real market-driven cost for resolving the cheating scandal any other way. L
eaving the US market has the additional downside that it tosses more fuel on the fire to put the whole mess of liabilities into the control of a bankruptcy court, along with a big pile of assets to make at least a token payment all around, leaving the remaining company free to be reborn and get busy reestablishing themselves. After all, if they leave the market, who is going to be left behind that will encourage the government entities with fines to levy, to levy something less than the maximum?
jgs
Active Member
Last few posts talking as though VW has threatened to exit the U.S. market, what are you basing that on? The recent Osterloh quote doesn't support it. For example here's an excerpt from the GCR story: "Bernd Osterloh, chairman of VW Group's works council, said on Tuesday that the company might have to cut jobs in the U.S. as well as Europe". He's certainly not threatening to exit the European market! I think this is just saber-rattling of the sort that has worked so well for them in Germany ("nice national economy you've got there, be a shame if something... happened to it") and they still can't understand why it's not working in the States.
Quote from that article:
"Herbert Diess, the global chief of Volkswagen AG’s namesake brand, was sounding out U.S. dealers as the company grappled with the biggest crisis in its modern history. Perhaps, Diess wondered aloud, VW should stop trying to compete with the likes of Toyota Motor Corp. in America and go back to focusing on higher-end models."
If true, that is a stunning statement by Diess. And of course the VW dealers hate that idea. They want to move as many units as possible, in all price segments, because they make money servicing cars. The more the better.
The "go back to...higher end models" part made me laugh. VW started in the US with the Beetle. You can't get much lower end than that.
Gerardf
Active Member
Ouch..
VW institutional investors file $3.61 billion suit in Germany
VW institutional investors file $3.61 billion suit in Germany
VW institutional investors file $3.61 billion suit in Germany
VW institutional investors file $3.61 billion suit in Germany
glhs272
Unnamed plug faced villian
It appears Volkswagen has been trying to dig themselves into a deeper hole...
Allegedly deleting data and destroying documents against court orders.
Ex-worker says VW destroyed evidence after emissions-cheating accusations
Allegedly deleting data and destroying documents against court orders.
Ex-worker says VW destroyed evidence after emissions-cheating accusations
Official states none of the 3 versions of VW diesels can be certified. I guess this means the Porsche's and Audi's as well!!!!
CARB official: VW diesels may not be able to be fixed completely
CARB official: VW diesels may not be able to be fixed completely
mspohr
Well-Known Member
I think that should be obvious. If they could have been made compliant, VW would have built them that way originally. The only reason they resorted to subterfuge was because they couldn't make them compliant.
FlatSix911
Porsche 918 Hybrid
Volkswagen USA CEO Michael Horn Clashed With Management, Was Forced Out
"A new report from a Texas dealer claims that former Volkswagen USA CEO Michael Horn clashed with VW management over the handling of the Dieselgate scandal in North America and was forced out, despite popularity among dealers.
As we reported just yesterday, VW’s U.S. CEO left Volkswagen through a “mutual agreement” despite being one of the few company executives to survive the Dieselgate scandal initially, believed to be the virtue of the popularity and support from North American dealers. Now those dealers are furious at Horn’s departure from the automaker he devoted 26 years of his life towards, and one Texas dealer has stepped forward claiming Horn was forced out after clashes with German management.
Texas Volkswagen dealer Alan Brown, who is head of VW’s National Dealer Advisory Council in the U.S., has claimed that Herbert Diess, chairman of the Volkswagen automotive company, listened to dealers and kept Horn with the company, but added a new North American position overseeing Horn’s U.S. role and intended to move Horn to a new position, via the Associated Press. Brown claims Horn didn’t agree with this strategy and instead decided to leave the company after being the face of Dieselgate in America for over six months.
Brown also claims that VW management didn’t agree with Horn over his plan of offering the $1,000 gift card goodwill program to over 600,000 U.S. owners of the brand’s affected diesel vehicles, resulting in damaging clashes that led to Horn’s departure. It is also claimed that VW management clashed with Horn over the brand’s American lineup, with the U.S. CEO wanting more SUVs and vehicles he felt were suited for the American market which management wouldn’t agree with. Brown claims that Horn would “go unplugged” after such clashes.
In the months following the revelation that over 11 million diesel Volkswagen vehicles around the world used software and defeat-devices to cheat emissions standards, Michael Horn was one of the few executives at VW to keep his job thanks to an outcry of support from U.S. dealers. Horn oversaw the development and execution of the goodwill voucher program in the U.S., testified to Congress on behalf of Volkswagen over the scandal, and apologized time and time again, becoming notable for his brutal honesty.
Since the announcement of Horn’s departure there has been an outcry from U.S. dealers who appreciated the CEO’s honesty and ability to “repair fractured relations with dealers,” according to AP. Brown stated that Volkswagen’s American dealer network is now “hanging by a thread,” and will meet with the company’s executives in Germany as head of VW’s National Dealer Advisory Council next week. Meanwhile, the automaker faces a March 24 deadline to come up with a solution to reverse the effects of its cheating software on 600,000 affected U.S. models, as well as lawsuits, fines and a Justice Department investigation."
"A new report from a Texas dealer claims that former Volkswagen USA CEO Michael Horn clashed with VW management over the handling of the Dieselgate scandal in North America and was forced out, despite popularity among dealers.
As we reported just yesterday, VW’s U.S. CEO left Volkswagen through a “mutual agreement” despite being one of the few company executives to survive the Dieselgate scandal initially, believed to be the virtue of the popularity and support from North American dealers. Now those dealers are furious at Horn’s departure from the automaker he devoted 26 years of his life towards, and one Texas dealer has stepped forward claiming Horn was forced out after clashes with German management.
Texas Volkswagen dealer Alan Brown, who is head of VW’s National Dealer Advisory Council in the U.S., has claimed that Herbert Diess, chairman of the Volkswagen automotive company, listened to dealers and kept Horn with the company, but added a new North American position overseeing Horn’s U.S. role and intended to move Horn to a new position, via the Associated Press. Brown claims Horn didn’t agree with this strategy and instead decided to leave the company after being the face of Dieselgate in America for over six months.
Brown also claims that VW management didn’t agree with Horn over his plan of offering the $1,000 gift card goodwill program to over 600,000 U.S. owners of the brand’s affected diesel vehicles, resulting in damaging clashes that led to Horn’s departure. It is also claimed that VW management clashed with Horn over the brand’s American lineup, with the U.S. CEO wanting more SUVs and vehicles he felt were suited for the American market which management wouldn’t agree with. Brown claims that Horn would “go unplugged” after such clashes.
In the months following the revelation that over 11 million diesel Volkswagen vehicles around the world used software and defeat-devices to cheat emissions standards, Michael Horn was one of the few executives at VW to keep his job thanks to an outcry of support from U.S. dealers. Horn oversaw the development and execution of the goodwill voucher program in the U.S., testified to Congress on behalf of Volkswagen over the scandal, and apologized time and time again, becoming notable for his brutal honesty.
Since the announcement of Horn’s departure there has been an outcry from U.S. dealers who appreciated the CEO’s honesty and ability to “repair fractured relations with dealers,” according to AP. Brown stated that Volkswagen’s American dealer network is now “hanging by a thread,” and will meet with the company’s executives in Germany as head of VW’s National Dealer Advisory Council next week. Meanwhile, the automaker faces a March 24 deadline to come up with a solution to reverse the effects of its cheating software on 600,000 affected U.S. models, as well as lawsuits, fines and a Justice Department investigation."
FlatSix911
Porsche 918 Hybrid
Not really accurate, apart from what the CARB official wants. VW, themselves, just affirmed they would prefer fixing the cars.
VW Said in Talks With U.S. Over Two Funds to Pay for Pollution
Today's news of funds being setup to remediate will not just cover penalties, but will also likely be for those cars whose owners do not want to lose performance by having emissions systems dialed up. Many wanting a fix will probably get it.
mspohr
Well-Known Member
VW may prefer to fix the cars but it doesn't look like that is possible so they may have to buy them back and junk them. I don't think owners will have the option to keep driving the cars without a fix.
FlatSix911
Porsche 918 Hybrid
Agree on the EV part, CNG not so much:
1) VW doesn't sell heavy-duty trucks in the US.
2) Natural gas isn't as clean as people say, when you include the aquifer contamination from fracking and likely substantial wellhead and pipeline.
3) Inhofe is an infamous climate change denier (the guy who brought a snowball to a committee meeting as "proof" global warming isn't real) and - surprise, surprise! - represents a state with lots of oil & gas production.
mspohr
Well-Known Member
Looks like the US FTC has also weighed in on the deception:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/30/business/media/ftc-sues-volkswagen-over-diesel-car-ads.html?_r=0
"For years, Volkswagen ran ads that emphasized how efficient, fun and, above all, clean its diesel cars were. A series of online ads last year, for example, featured three sisters debunking old wives’ tales about diesel, including that it was dirty and that it smelled bad.
But in the latest headache for the German automaker — which admitted last year that it had lied about the performance of its diesel technology — those ads have come under regulatory scrutiny. On Tuesday, the Federal Trade Commission filed a lawsuit against the Volkswagen Group of America, saying the company’s “clean diesel” advertising campaign was deceptive."
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/30/business/media/ftc-sues-volkswagen-over-diesel-car-ads.html?_r=0
"For years, Volkswagen ran ads that emphasized how efficient, fun and, above all, clean its diesel cars were. A series of online ads last year, for example, featured three sisters debunking old wives’ tales about diesel, including that it was dirty and that it smelled bad.
But in the latest headache for the German automaker — which admitted last year that it had lied about the performance of its diesel technology — those ads have come under regulatory scrutiny. On Tuesday, the Federal Trade Commission filed a lawsuit against the Volkswagen Group of America, saying the company’s “clean diesel” advertising campaign was deceptive."
Lots of articles coming out today stating VW will buy back up to 500,000 TDI's plus pay $5000 on top of that.
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