Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500,000 Vehicles Over Emissions Software

[TEG]

...Question for folks who know diesels better, would a retrofitted urea system preserve the cars fundamental characteristics (fuel economy, performance, etc) or would there be some detrimental effect?

My understanding is that there is a tradeoff between fuel economy and emissions. I suspect if they tune it to reduce emissions, then the fuel economy will go down.
Basically, I think they need to run the fuel/air mixture more rich so that the temps are higher in the emissions reduction components in the exhaust system.

The industry is being mandated for better fuel economy AND lower emissions. VW picked one...

 

[omarsultan]

Thanks for the education on urea systems. While the cost of a urea retro-fit might be high, it would be a fixed cost ( X car * Y retrofits) as would a buyback (albeit much more expensive) and they could write if off in one fiscal year. Meanwhile a reprograming of the ECU and the likely resultant class action suits are going to result in an unknown liability which, along with all the publicity is going to hang over VW's head until everything settles (which I image would be at least a couple of years). If I am on VW's board, I wonder if it might be desirable to eat the upfront cost of a retrofit or buyback to manage the risk and get VW off the front page.

 

[smac]

Are EU emission requirements the same for all EU countries?
Do the VW diesels meet German emission requirements?
Is there any indications that the German government is conducting a criminal inquiry?

1) Yes. The cars must meet European Type Approval. This is valid for all member states
2) In theory yes. (US have stricter NOx limits. )
3) Only Rumors

 

[dhanson865]

I actually suggested we get a used Model S to have two of them to replace the TDI. She doesn't want it!

She'd like a Model X, but she only drives 6K miles a year and it's not economically viable for us to get one. Once Model 3 is out, we are all over that. It's getting to that point that I am now worried about.

I've seen used LEAFs for <$10k...

In California I've seen used Leafs under $7,000 on a retail car lot in good condition.

Those sorts of deals come and go, you have to be ready to pounce on them.

I got mine in May for $8995 much farther east (bought in NC, drove it back to TN. 200+ miles to get home on 85 miles a charge).

I expect you'll be able to beat that deal in California if you try. Plenty of 2013 and 2014 cars will get turned in when the 2016 Leaf with 30 kWh battery starts showing up.

If you could deal with the range limitation you could probably sell a TDI and grab a Leaf and come out with cash in hand (if the TDI was a clear title) even with all the TDIgate junk. Heck if you had the financial ability you might be able to grab a cheap Leaf and hold onto the TDI until the prices bounce back/settle but who knows if that would be a gain vs inflation/opportunity cost. And to be clear you might still lose a lot of money selling a TDI, but the Leaf can be found so cheap I'm thinking you'd still have enough even selling a TDI at a loss (gross vs net).

 

[beeeerock]

Thanks for the education on urea systems. While the cost of a urea retro-fit might be high, it would be a fixed cost ( X car * Y retrofits) as would a buyback (albeit much more expensive) and they could write if off in one fiscal year. Meanwhile a reprograming of the ECU and the likely resultant class action suits are going to result in an unknown liability which, along with all the publicity is going to hang over VW's head until everything settles (which I image would be at least a couple of years). If I am on VW's board, I wonder if it might be desirable to eat the upfront cost of a retrofit or buyback to manage the risk and get VW off the front page.

It could be more complicated than simply doing a retrofit. When we were in the Audi dealership about this time last year, I was surprised at the number of models available in diesel. My wife settled on another A3, which has an AdBlue tank, but we also looked at the A4... but it was about the only one not available in diesel. The explanation we got was that the new body refresh coming soon would include a spot for the AdBlue tank... but there was no room in the current model. That seemed a bit of a stretch to me, but I suppose everything is so tightly packed in a modern car, adding the tank would require something else giving up some space. Maybe a new fuel tank with a second compartment for AdBlue that would fit where the original one sits would work. A loss of some fuel volume but something has to give.

Probably a bunch of wiring harness and exhaust system changes needed too - a retrofit might become quite complicated.

It makes me wonder if her A3 is impacted by the fiasco, since she has the AdBlue tank in hers. The only one I've seen in all the VW 4 cylinder diesels I've had since 2000.

 

[omarsultan]

It could be more complicated than simply doing a retrofit.

Good points - I'll am curious to see what they end up doing - I almost feel sorry for them as nothing is gonna make everyone happy.

 

[gene]

Good points - I'll am curious to see what they end up doing - I almost feel sorry for them as nothing is gonna make everyone happy.

Me, I'd like my money back for the 2010 TDI I bought my son. We paid about a $5000 premium to VW for the "Clean Diesel". About $28,000 all together. VW basically swindled us, with zero conscience on their part. And then they dare say "we want to win back the customers trust", is VW kidding, they get busted and suddenly now VW has a conscience? . These guys are criminals and ripped off consumers, anything less than a buy back is less than equitable.

 

[ScepticMatt]

Interesting, because in the ICCT/WVU test, only the BMW passed, but don't remember which model they tested.

3.0-litre BMW X5

 

[Fanatic]

It could be more complicated than simply doing a retrofit. When we were in the Audi dealership about this time last year, I was surprised at the number of models available in diesel. My wife settled on another A3, which has an AdBlue tank, but we also looked at the A4... but it was about the only one not available in diesel. The explanation we got was that the new body refresh coming soon would include a spot for the AdBlue tank... but there was no room in the current model. That seemed a bit of a stretch to me, but I suppose everything is so tightly packed in a modern car, adding the tank would require something else giving up some space. Maybe a new fuel tank with a second compartment for AdBlue that would fit where the original one sits would work. A loss of some fuel volume but something has to give.

Probably a bunch of wiring harness and exhaust system changes needed too - a retrofit might become quite complicated.

It makes me wonder if her A3 is impacted by the fiasco, since she has the AdBlue tank in hers. The only one I've seen in all the VW 4 cylinder diesels I've had since 2000.

The Adblue device was installed in some of the cars that did not meet the requirements. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2015-09-24/how-the-volkswagen-cheating-scandal-was-exposed. Feel sorry for U guys that bought a hazardous product from a cheating company. I hate my Golf 4 because it's from a cheating company.. In a couple of month I get my X though.

 

[nwdiver]

This isn't helping the already blurred lines between CO2 and NOx... which are complete OPPOSITES in most ways... but it's still amusing...

 

[gene]

Volkswagen's emissions scandal is worse than Enron | Fusion

Excellent article on link above :

"What’s different about the Volkswagen lies is the sheer scale of the deception. Volkswagen cars account for one of every ten passenger vehicles sold in the world. By wildly understating the emissions of its passenger diesel fleet, Volkswagen spit in the face of regulators, falsely advertised to millions of customers all over the world, and effectively undid years’ worth of work to responsibly lower emissions targets and mitigate the effects of health-damaging smog and climate change.

Unless you’re an automotive emissions expert, it’s hard to truly grasp the likely scope of the damage. But make no mistake: this is a big ****ing deal. In fact, it may be the worst display of corporate malfeasance since Lehman Brothers.



"

 

[Fanatic]

Apparently Bosch knew about the defeat device long time ago and warned VW about it.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/09/27/reports-volkswagen-emmissions/72923064/
The sheer scale of this deception will be uncovered and it won't be pretty.. Funny Greenpeace ad, but it shows why I don't financially support their work. "Facts" that aren't facts and simplifying problems seems to be common for them.

 

[andrewket]

I haven't looked, I'm curious if anyone else has.. Has the resale value of these cars already tumbled? There could be a class action suit just on that aspect alone.

 

[GasDoc]

I haven't looked, I'm curious if anyone else has.. Has the resale value of these cars already tumbled? There could be a class action suit just on that aspect alone.

I know of someone who took their affected VW to an Audi dealership wanting to trade it in. They said they couldn't offer her anything for it. Their advice? "Donate it to a charity".

 

[jerry33]

I know of someone who took their affected VW to an Audi dealership wanting to trade it in. They said they couldn't offer her anything for it. Their advice? "Donate it to a charity".

So much for the NADA claim that dealer help the consumers.

 

[gene]

I haven't looked, I'm curious if anyone else has.. Has the resale value of these cars already tumbled? There could be a class action suit just on that aspect alone.

I took a look at autotrader.com this morning. In the Los Angeles area, I see many listings that are dealer ads in which the prices look about usual. Then there is a plethora of private party ads that seem lower than they would have been by about $5000. Question is, are any of these being sold? Are these sellers getting asking price or accepting even lower offers?

My college son has a 2010 TDI that I bought for him new. As a huge EV fan, my plan is to replace it with a Model 3. As much as I now hate owning this car, I think I need to hang on to it until the Model 3 arrives. I'd buy him a Leaf or Spark EV in a flash, except he would need great range. The eGolf? Never, ever. I'll see what restitution I get from VW. Those selling their TDI's now, might find they would have had a better deal to have kept it and reaped some sort of compensation. Yet, I understand how they feel like getting rid of it asap.

 

[Electroman]

Did they put the cheat device on the eGolf too? Just as a matter of habit

-

 

[stopcrazypp]

I took a look at autotrader.com this morning. In the Los Angeles area, I see many listings that are dealer ads in which the prices look about usual. Then there is a plethora of private party ads that seem lower than they would have been by about $5000. Question is, are any of these being sold? Are these sellers getting asking price or accepting even lower offers?

My college son has a 2010 TDI that I bought for him new. As a huge EV fan, my plan is to replace it with a Model 3. As much as I now hate owning this car, I think I need to hang on to it until the Model 3 arrives. I'd buy him a Leaf or Spark EV in a flash, except he would need great range. The eGolf? Never, ever. I'll see what restitution I get from VW. Those selling their TDI's now, might find they would have had a better deal to have kept it and reaped some sort of compensation. Yet, I understand how they feel like getting rid of it asap.

VW put a stop sale on all their dealers so they aren't even allowed to sell used versions of the affected vehicles. I suspect any listings by VW dealers would not actually be for sale if you went to the dealer.

I do agree with your decision to wait and see. Selling right now is like selling a stock at its lowest point. No one knows yet what VW/EPA will do for the customer cars, so it is best to wait and see. Right now only non-VW and private party can buy the car and they will likely offer very little.

 

[gg_got_a_tesla]

Did they put the cheat device on the eGolf too? Just as a matter of habit

-

Ha ha, to be sure, I got on the floor behind the car with it running to check if I got dizzy or short of breath or something. No luck.

 

[Fanatic]

Bad joke time...
After world war 2 SS changed name to VW and got rid of the racist agenda, now the plan is to gas all mankind!