Volt -vs- Plug-in Prius

[AndrewBissell]

^ you've nailed it. That is why after my drive of the Prius PHV yesterday I felt so "meh".

The Prius PHV would have been a wonderful car, and we'd all have been damned positive ... if they had released it four years ago. Back then EV mode over 30 and even a 12 mile EV range in an OEM Prius would have been great (though even back then that range would be less than most plug-in Prius conversions). Since then some conversions of the 2004-2009 Prius do 70 mph in EV mode and 40 miles EV with full control of when the ICE comes on. But ALL plug-in Priuses lack the torque-rush that leads to the EV grin.

 

[richkae]

I have a 2004 Prius, I agree it is unfun. I drive it as little as possible.
I would rather drive the Roadster with groceries in my lap than take the Prius.

Ignoring the insufficient power issue to drive highway speeds as an EV, I think it is important that if you have to pay to plug in your Prius - you are very likely getting screwed ( because every chargepoint I looked at that was not free, had a minimum cost of $1 )

 

[doug]

Chelsea Sexton: SB 535, HOV access for plug-in and the unintended consequences of easy political wins Autoblog Green

... the 2012 Toyota Prius PHV, which cannot operate at what most people consider true highway speeds without burning gasoline (and so, under these conditions, the plug-in Prius is not meaningfully different than the standard Prius) will have [HOV] access. Meanwhile, the 2011 Chevrolet Volt – which for most people will never use gasoline during the standard commute conducted on those very same HOV lanes – will not.

This would have been a big factor in favor of the plug-in Prius for customers in California, but supposedly the 2012 Volt will qualify the new green stickers.
Must suck for those 2011 Volts, though.

 

[TEG]

2011 Chevrolet Volt First Test - Motor Trend

 

[TEG]

The Volt can't even hold its' own against a non-plug-in Prius if you go on a long trip...

3,790-mile trip shows how a Chevy Volt can burn more gas than a Prius



Prius Plug-in is a better car than the Chevy Volt - Jun. 27, 2011

 

[ljbad4life]

The Volt can't even hold its' own against a non-plug-in Prius if you go on a long trip...

3,790-mile trip shows how a Chevy Volt can burn more gas than a Prius



Prius Plug-in is a better car than the Chevy Volt - Jun. 27, 2011

A 3k+ mile trip? That's not the intended purpose of a Volt, But the Volt still gives you the flexibility of doing it. The plug in prius stayed in EV mode for 4% of the time on highway trips, it doesn't matter the distance. If you want to burn gas every day, every single trip that you can bike to then buy a nearly same priced Prius Plugin (this is coming from a prius owner). If you want to drive mostly on electricity, and still take your weekend trips, then buy a volt (if you don't have access to qc or large ev range car)

 

[TEG]

But GM advertising seems to encourage people to take long trips.

Getting people to think more about staying local will help reduce consumption, and make plug-in-vehicles more effective.

 

[ljbad4life]

But GM advertising seems to encourage people to take long trips.

Getting people to think more about staying local will help reduce consumption, and make plug-in-vehicles more effective.

GM said that you don't have to worry about the charging stations which don't exists outside of a few places. They were saying that you can do what you want without much impact to you life. That you can use the Volt to do many things. operate as a ev on weekdays and if you jaunt out to the country (or whatever) on the weekends, you can still do it.

If you drive more that 180 miles a day then a prius would be better for you, but realistically most people don't drive that much per day, so the volt fits the bill.

What exactly is Toyota billing this as? A NEV... that's the same price as a true ev (not even adding in the tax credits, then the LEAF is cheaper) or that it's within 3-4k of the Volt, which has an true ev range of 40 miles at any speed? Or that the Plugin prius gets 56mpg on long trips, so that almost 10k premium is for what exactly(given that example of 3k mile trip). It makes no sense to me and the pricing is not good. If you can stay in the P-prius'ev range you could honestly buy a bike (under 12 miles and under highway speed) or buy a LEAF.

Everyone was praising Toyota before because they expected the plugin prius to come in at under 30k, well now what?

Oh and don't get into handling and acceleration of the other 2 cars vs any prius because we know how that will end

 

[dpeilow]

The Volt can't even hold its' own against a non-plug-in Prius if you go on a long trip...
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Funnily enough I knew this would be an Eric Loveday article before I even clicked the link.

I can't see where it says the gas MPG or total used in the press release. Seems to me that Eric is plucking his conclusion out of thin air.

We do know that the Plug-in-Prius 128 mpg bears as little relationship to the real world as Volt's 230 mpg did. Nikki Gordon Bloomfield took a PiP on a 1400 mile road trip and got 63 (UK) MPG which is 52.5 US MPG. Nikki knows how to drive economically.

The fact is that these plug in hybrid economy figures are totally arbitrary - depending on what the car is used for. Thus the whole Prius-vs-Volt thing is a total non-argument.

 

[TEG]

...The fact is that these plug in hybrid economy figures are totally arbitrary - depending on what the car is used for. Thus the whole Prius-vs-Volt thing is a total non-argument...

I wouldn't say that. I run into people who have already discounted the idea of getting a 100% ZEV (like the Leaf due to range reasons, or a Tesla due to cost reasons), but are thinking about Plug-in cars like PiP or Volt. I think in California, next year, they are going to be the first two vehicles that qualify for the new green carpool stickers, which is going to put them both on the list for a lot of potential buyers. (Yes, in CA, the carpool sticker perk can be a strong motivator in a car purchase choice for some people.)

That the PiP is priced high enough to be getting close to Volt price also makes them something to compare.

 

[doug]

Still not definitely clear if the Volt is going to qualify for that green sticker or not. I agree that for quite a few, HOV lane access is a big deal.

 

[stopcrazypp]

It makes no sense to me and the pricing is not good. If you can stay in the P-prius'ev range you could honestly buy a bike (under 12 miles and under highway speed) or buy a LEAF.

It don't think a bike is necessarily a reasonable replacement for a car even given under 12 miles and highway speeds. Passenger space and cargo space are two things a bike doesn't address.

There's going to be people with various range needs and there will be plug-ins with various different ranges and capabilities. There's nothing that says a certain amount of range is going to be "perfect". Some will need less, some need more. GM was able to lobby to have 16kWh (the Volt's battery capacity) as the cut-off for the plug-in credit, so they definitely benefit from that.

Anyways, in CA at least, whichever one will get the carpool sticker will probably win out. A lot of people bought hybrids for the carpool sticker.

 

[ljbad4life]

It don't think a bike is necessarily a reasonable replacement for a car even given under 12 miles and highway speeds. Passenger space and cargo space are two things a bike doesn't address.

There's going to be people with various range needs and there will be plug-ins with various different ranges and capabilities. There's nothing that says a certain amount of range is going to be "perfect". Some will need less, some need more. GM was able to lobby to have 16kWh (the Volt's battery capacity) as the cut-off for the plug-in credit, so they definitely benefit from that.

Anyways, in CA at least, whichever one will get the carpool sticker will probably win out. A lot of people bought hybrids for the carpool sticker.

It's under 12 miles and under highway speeds (and slow acceleration) for the PiP to stay in EV mode. For that range buy a LEAF. If you travel more than that buy a Volt. If you travel a ton, buy a Prius. The PiP is self defeating because in the end it will end up competing against it's non plugin model thanks to it anemic range and lack luster Electric motor. The conversions of a Prius to a plug in prius I've seen have are far more capable and priced the nearly the same.

 

[EVNow]

It's under 12 miles and under highway speeds (and slow acceleration) for the PiP to stay in EV mode. For that range buy a LEAF. If you travel more than that buy a Volt. If you travel a ton, buy a Prius. The PiP is self defeating because in the end it will end up competing against it's non plugin model thanks to it anemic range and lack luster Electric motor.

15 miles & under 62 mph to stay within EV mode. Price is a little high & EV range a little too low. But it works well for people with short commutes - infact potentially it would work for us - I could take PIP & wife can take my Leaf. But I'm waiting for Energi ... she wants a taller vehicle ...

 

[stopcrazypp]

It's under 12 miles and under highway speeds (and slow acceleration) for the PiP to stay in EV mode. For that range buy a LEAF. If you travel more than that buy a Volt. If you travel a ton, buy a Prius. The PiP is self defeating because in the end it will end up competing against it's non plugin model thanks to it anemic range and lack luster Electric motor. The conversions of a Prius to a plug in prius I've seen have are far more capable and priced the nearly the same.

I think the PiP will compete more with the Volt than the Leaf. The idea of the PiP is the same: having a gas engine for occasional longer trips. I don't think short daily trips necessarily mean the Leaf is more suitable than a plug-in hybrid; what matters more in that choice is the length and frequency of your occasional long trips in relation to the Leaf's max range and charging infrastructure.

If you need a plug-in hybrid instead of a BEV, then having shorter daily trips isn't going to change that in favor of the BEV (it'll only make it so a plug-in hybrid with a shorter electric range will work for you). Then you'll mostly be cross shopping the PiP and the Volt. Anyways, we won't know much about actual demand until the car is actually for sale and not constrained by supply (Volt sales have been so-so so far, but right now it seems mostly to do with supply; supposedly it should ramp up quite quickly in the coming months).

As for conversions, for a similar price, I think a lot of people would prefer the Toyota factory warranty than converting the car.

 

[vfx]

...Anyways, in CA at least, whichever one will get the carpool sticker will probably win out. A lot of people bought hybrids for the carpool sticker.

And they got expiration extensions twice + that last 6 month extension. We certainly hope the white EV ones go beyond the planned 2015. It's been pretty great now that all those yellow stickers are cleared out.

 

[doug]

Toyota Says Rechargeable Prius Is Lowest-Cost U.S. Plug-in - Bloomberg

“Toyota will have the advantage of using the Prius name, which is almost a brand of its own,” said Michael Omotoso, senior manager of global powertrain for industry forecaster J.D. Power & Associates. “Right now the market is very small. The only vehicle to compare the plug-in to is the Chevy Volt.”

U.S. sales of the rechargeable Prius should be about 15,000 units in its first 12 months on the market, he said. It can average more than 80 mpg, based on company tests, Carter said.

The company’s goal is “a little conservative,” said Omotoso, who is based in Troy, Michigan.

With the plug-in, “there’ll be a little bit of cannibalization with the regular Prius,” he said “But they can also get some conquest sales from people considering Leaf and Volt, but who are maybe a little bit hesitant because of price or range issues.”

 

[dpeilow]

Toyota prices plug-in Prius hybrid to take on Ampera - 22 Sep 2011 - News from BusinessGreen

Toyota Prices New Prius Plug-In Hybrid Below Vauxhall Ampera



£31,000 before rebate - £3000 below the Ampera. I'm pretty sure I can recover that in a couple of years.

 

[TEG]

I think they overpriced it a bit. It sounds like they still view the non plug in version as their "mainstream" variant.
(Even taking into account incentives that might have shifted things more in favor of the plug in version.)

 

[AndrewBissell]

I will be interested to see how hard the dealers fight for my trade-in/trade-up from a 2004 Prius. Will the Vauxhall Dealer (Peter Vardy) offer incentives to match/beat Western Toyota?