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stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
The Audi S3 is probably the closer segment competitor ($43k), although it is probably a size class smaller than the Model 3. Audi A4 starts at $37K (0-60 6.6 seconds official Audi specs).
With launch control, it seems a lot of cars have shaved down the 0-60. The manual version of Golf R is 0.7 seconds slower according to your article.
The Golf R is sold to a different market than the target for the Model 3, as stopcrazypp pointed out, so I'm not sure how valid the comparison is.
However, you listed the 0-60 time of 4.5 but you didn't list the rolling start (5-60) time of 5.8 seconds. The base Model 3 will likely have a rolling start time right around there so both cars will have about the same responsiveness when driving. The C&D driver got the manual Golf R to do 0-60 in 5.3 sec and 5-60 in 6.2 seconds, which means the Model 3 will likely be a little faster than than the manual Golf R in normal driving.
Here's another thread that briefly discusses the C&D comparison of the Golf R, Focus RS and WRX STI.
RWD Model 3 acceleration vs <$40k entry luxury sedans
However, you listed the 0-60 time of 4.5 but you didn't list the rolling start (5-60) time of 5.8 seconds. The base Model 3 will likely have a rolling start time right around there so both cars will have about the same responsiveness when driving. The C&D driver got the manual Golf R to do 0-60 in 5.3 sec and 5-60 in 6.2 seconds, which means the Model 3 will likely be a little faster than than the manual Golf R in normal driving.
Here's another thread that briefly discusses the C&D comparison of the Golf R, Focus RS and WRX STI.
RWD Model 3 acceleration vs <$40k entry luxury sedans
And what is its fully electric range? Where can I charge it - assuming it has an electric range - on long trips?
wallet.dat
Member
Sigh, I don't know how many times I have to explain this. The 5-60 times aren't about actually going 5-60, and they aren't about racing. The reflect how fast the car accelerates if you don't rev the ICE engine really high and pop the clutch. In other words if you are just sitting at a stop light not being an asshat and then punch it. The point is that nobody gets close to the 0-60 ICE times in real driving (like how fast can I accelerate onto a freeway), but in an electric car you can just by pushing down on the accelerator. I would prefer a 0-60 from idle time, but 5-60 is pretty close and enforces what "idle" means.
We'll need to keep preaching it until more people get an opportunity to drive faster EVs. The immediate response of the motor is very appealing--No more waiting to shift, rev the engine, and spool up the turbo. People have to experience it to understand.
omgwtfbyobbq
Active Member
Are Tesla people so insecure that they keep gravitating to silly rolling acceleration metrics like 5-60?
It means nothing, because the ICE car starts in the wrong gear.
So Tesla wins that, because it cant be in a wrong gear, but it is a meaningless comparison.
It means nothing, because the ICE car starts in the wrong gear.
So Tesla wins that, because it cant be in a wrong gear, but it is a meaningless comparison.
Personal attacks are not helpful, so let's ignore that.
Recognize that the rolling start test begins in 1st gear, so ICE cars are not in the "wrong gear".
Let's turn this around, using different examples, so you can better understand the validity of the rolling start metric.
Which car is faster and more responsive during normal driving? --> The Camaro with the low-end grunt from it's V8.
The i8 depends on a turbocharged engine for peak acceleration. Without the benefit of launch control, as used with the 0-60 test, i8 lags the Camaro. With so many cars getting turbos these days, the importance of the rolling start test is increasing.
Here's a more detailed explanation of the rolling start test and why it matters:
The Rolling Start, A Better EV Performance Metric
Recognize that the rolling start test begins in 1st gear, so ICE cars are not in the "wrong gear".
Let's turn this around, using different examples, so you can better understand the validity of the rolling start metric.
Which car is faster and more responsive during normal driving? --> The Camaro with the low-end grunt from it's V8.
The i8 depends on a turbocharged engine for peak acceleration. Without the benefit of launch control, as used with the 0-60 test, i8 lags the Camaro. With so many cars getting turbos these days, the importance of the rolling start test is increasing.
Here's a more detailed explanation of the rolling start test and why it matters:
The Rolling Start, A Better EV Performance Metric
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Rolling start better simulates on the road performance, especially in the world where practically every ICE performance car has launch control now to inflate their 0-60 number. In the real world, you aren't going to have the chance to do launch control at every stoplight. The 5-60 was invented actually to compare ICE vehicles.
And it doesn't even really involve racing, but just for example getting the jump at a light (similar to the smart commercial shown). Always being in the "right gear" is a significant real world advantage that the number demonstrates.
EXOTIC1
Member
1/4 mile times are all that matter for me.
I'm also concerned with 45-70 passing times/speeds
stop light to stop light is so overrated
I'm also concerned with 45-70 passing times/speeds
stop light to stop light is so overrated
A Golf Type R? It's hard to find a car that makes less sense per dollar anywhere.
It costs more than fast cars, but includes turbo-lag and VW troubles free of charge.
Although it might be a chick magnet. "I spent $40k for an econobox pretending to be a sports car, so I'm willing to blow money on anything!"
It costs more than fast cars, but includes turbo-lag and VW troubles free of charge.
Although it might be a chick magnet. "I spent $40k for an econobox pretending to be a sports car, so I'm willing to blow money on anything!"
diamond.g
Active Member
Eh it tends to be a better bargain than the Audi S3 (before they stopped offering the hatchback here).A Golf Type R? It's hard to find a car that makes less sense per dollar anywhere.
It costs more than fast cars, but includes turbo-lag and VW troubles free of charge.
Although it might be a chick magnet. "I spent $40k for an econobox pretending to be a sports car, so I'm willing to blow money on anything!"
Zoomit, I appreciate you posting the link.
OK, perhaps I was hasty in saying it's a useless metric.
It does expose Turbo Lag, which I agree is highly useful.
It also demonstrates low end torque, which we know favors an EV.
However, it's not clear what gear they begin the 5mph rolling start in.
Automatics, I'm sure are in Auto Mode, which means 2nd and possibly even 3rd gear.
Seems like wrong Drive Mode (Economy/Sport/Track) or extended rolling at 5mph could taint the results.
For a manual;
Some cars may do better in 2nd, if it avoids a shift before 60.
Another car may do better in 1st, despite needing to shift.
3rd would be bad, for most cars, even if that is the gear needed to hit 60mph.
Do you think they use optimum starting gear for each car?
I think I appreciate EV performance as much as anyone here, so this is not about that.
What bothers me about EV is, having to lug around huge battery weight to get fast acceleration and long range.
Have you noticed, a 60 is 613lb lighter than a P85D (figure similar between 70 & P90D)?
Tesla Model S - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It's kind of like the American Muscle Car era where bigger engines kept going in cars, to the detriment of handling & braking.
I want to see EV's mature to the point, they have good handling (like a Golf-R, 911, BMW M3/4, etc).
OK, perhaps I was hasty in saying it's a useless metric.
It does expose Turbo Lag, which I agree is highly useful.
It also demonstrates low end torque, which we know favors an EV.
However, it's not clear what gear they begin the 5mph rolling start in.
Automatics, I'm sure are in Auto Mode, which means 2nd and possibly even 3rd gear.
Seems like wrong Drive Mode (Economy/Sport/Track) or extended rolling at 5mph could taint the results.
For a manual;
Some cars may do better in 2nd, if it avoids a shift before 60.
Another car may do better in 1st, despite needing to shift.
3rd would be bad, for most cars, even if that is the gear needed to hit 60mph.
Do you think they use optimum starting gear for each car?
I think I appreciate EV performance as much as anyone here, so this is not about that.
What bothers me about EV is, having to lug around huge battery weight to get fast acceleration and long range.
Have you noticed, a 60 is 613lb lighter than a P85D (figure similar between 70 & P90D)?
Tesla Model S - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It's kind of like the American Muscle Car era where bigger engines kept going in cars, to the detriment of handling & braking.
I want to see EV's mature to the point, they have good handling (like a Golf-R, 911, BMW M3/4, etc).
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