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VTOL Supersonic aircraft

Discussion in 'Future Vehicles' started by Buckminster, Sep 10, 2018.

  1. Buckminster

    Buckminster Active Member

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    I thought I would set this up as a starting position - to be picked up in 10 years...


    1:16 in.

    Key points:
    VTOL
    Supersonic
    Re-gen
    Very high altitude
    High density batt required
    Not required yet - I think Elon meant that the battery is not ready rather than the world being ready.

    Questions:
    Would this be Tesla building upon the battery tech, SpaceX or another company?
    Suitable only for long range flight due to high altitude?
    Competes with BFR? Non VTOL, short range and subsonic might be a tad simpler starting position.
     
  2. AceSkywalker

    AceSkywalker Member

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    Electric airliners are at least two decades away.

    Energy density in batteries is just not where it has to be to sustain even regional airliners, much less the long haul voyages that Airbus and Boeing are chasing after in their newest jets, the 787 and A350.

    Aircraft design and certification is a slow and expensive process, a process I see Musk getting bored and/or irritated at. Moreover, they'd have to get airlines to bite. This is where the tricky part is. Whichever of Musk's companies builds this electric airliner has to match the reliability and service of Boeing and Airbus, whose newest planes have a dispatch reliability of >99.5%
     
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  3. david_42

    david_42 Member

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    I've been watching battery technology for almost 30 years and there isn't anything, even at the lab stage, that provides the energy density needed for long-range planes. More likely are hybrid planes that take advantage of batteries' power density and the low noise profile of electric drives for takeoff and landing, with fuel-driven turbine-generators for cruising.
     
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  4. Buckminster

    Buckminster Active Member

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    `From MA thread:
     
  5. Buckminster

    Buckminster Active Member

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    What would the VTOL aspect make this look like? This?
    upload_2018-11-22_21-39-27.jpeg
    The props would be good for re-gen but not supersonic. So the moveable engines become:
    upload_2018-11-22_21-41-8.jpeg
    Which contains:
    upload_2018-11-22_21-42-20.jpeg
    Which looks like:
    upload_2018-11-22_21-43-18.jpeg
    Except it needs to be sleeker like:
    [​IMG]
    Not this:
    [​IMG]
    I don't see how significant re-gen is compatible with supersonic engines. Aircraft have a back-up RAT that look like this: (Elon will hate it)
    [​IMG]
     
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  6. Buckminster

    Buckminster Active Member

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    Nothing new here - just the sheer number of times Elon has raised his idea for VTOL supersonic aircraft:
     
  7. oneday

    oneday Active Member

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    Tagging @MESM here because they have a really good handle on the physics of gas thrusters. Is there some practicality in using compressed air for added additional altitude, and regenerate compressed gas on the way down? Wish I had the math/physics skills you have.
     
  8. Buckminster

    Buckminster Active Member

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    If Maxwell tech is as good as this then Elon will want to get on with the jet ASAP.
     
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  9. Artful Dodger

    Artful Dodger "Ducimus, lit"

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    Yup, Elon said in a recent interview if ~85% of the airframe's mass could be batteries, then 400 whr/kg allows intercontinental flight, though not trans-oceanic (presumably BFR / Starship forfills that role).

    For Elon's boy's sake, I hope the airframe mass needs to be more like 50% batteries, and that the Maxcell tech gets there by about College age. Wot, 10 years? How old are the boys? ;)

    Cheers!
     
  10. Buckminster

    Buckminster Active Member

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  11. Green Pete

    Green Pete Active Member

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    I think this'll start to get lively long before then
     
  12. Buckminster

    Buckminster Active Member

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  13. F14Scott

    F14Scott Member

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    Even with a conventional gas turbine engine, supersonic VSTOL aircraft were not practical for the first fifty years of jet flight. With significantly less power density, and considering conventionally-configured, battery-powered aircraft are not even close to being a thing, yet, I'd say an electric Harrier is way, way down the road.
     
  14. Thekiwi

    Thekiwi Active Member

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    Ok just discovered Wright Electric - which is working on a fully electric 188 person airliner with 500km range, enough for Europe shorthaul traffic, for initial launch customer EasyJet. Designed to have swappable batteries. Initial product will be a ten seater hybrid.

    Targeting 2027 (but I’m dubious on that given the company seeks to be more in concept/Very early development stage).

    Home - Wright Electric

    If Tesla has a major breakthrough with Maxwell tech in terms of energy density, would be good to see them working with aircraft manufacturers as a supplier.
     
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  15. Buckminster

    Buckminster Active Member

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    Anyone think Elon could use stainless steel exoskeleton (as per Cybertruck & Starship) for some of the supersonic fuselage?
     
  16. Buckminster

    Buckminster Active Member

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    Gali described this as his best work:
     
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  17. Buckminster

    Buckminster Active Member

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    Anyone think Elon will mention the potential of battery powered aircraft at battery day?
     
  18. Thekiwi

    Thekiwi Active Member

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    I’m not expecting a big breakthrough in power to weight ratio, but if there is one it would be appropriate to bring up in context of electric aircraft.
     
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  19. Buckminster

    Buckminster Active Member

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    Elon has named his son after the A-12 Archangel - a supersonic aircraft. This could be that Elon is designing the aircraft at home and has pictures out for inspiration. He posted this on Twitter:
    [​IMG]
    And has now made this his Twitter handle picture:
    [​IMG]
     
  20. Brando

    Brando Active Member

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    #20 Brando, May 15, 2020
    Last edited: May 15, 2020
    This would seem the quickest to get started with electrification for larger long range planes. Hybrid

    My personal opinion only:
    1. combustion engines for take off (the highest power requirement, right?)
    2. electric motor for cruise

    [During landing probably start combustion engine for emergency go around if landing aborted]


    Reminder that we already have start for all electric planes:
    Harbour Air and magniX Announce Successful Flight of World’s First Commercial Electric Airplane – Harbour Air: North America's Largest Seaplane Airline – Since 1982
    Short range only solution, 2020.
     

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