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VTOL Supersonic aircraft

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Buckminster

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2018
10,286
51,159
UK
I thought I would set this up as a starting position - to be picked up in 10 years...

1:16 in.

Key points:
VTOL
Supersonic
Re-gen
Very high altitude
High density batt required
Not required yet - I think Elon meant that the battery is not ready rather than the world being ready.

Questions:
Would this be Tesla building upon the battery tech, SpaceX or another company?
Suitable only for long range flight due to high altitude?
Competes with BFR? Non VTOL, short range and subsonic might be a tad simpler starting position.
 
Electric airliners are at least two decades away.

Energy density in batteries is just not where it has to be to sustain even regional airliners, much less the long haul voyages that Airbus and Boeing are chasing after in their newest jets, the 787 and A350.

Aircraft design and certification is a slow and expensive process, a process I see Musk getting bored and/or irritated at. Moreover, they'd have to get airlines to bite. This is where the tricky part is. Whichever of Musk's companies builds this electric airliner has to match the reliability and service of Boeing and Airbus, whose newest planes have a dispatch reliability of >99.5%
 
I've been watching battery technology for almost 30 years and there isn't anything, even at the lab stage, that provides the energy density needed for long-range planes. More likely are hybrid planes that take advantage of batteries' power density and the low noise profile of electric drives for takeoff and landing, with fuel-driven turbine-generators for cruising.
 
`From MA thread:
Musk has already stated that Tesla would not build the plane. Which is understandable. I'm sure he'd much rather have it as part of a private company rather than a public one.



Tesla's really not a leader in density. The emerging solid state producers are going to dominate that. Tesla is about getting $/kWh down. For electric aircraft, you can afford to pay more, but you have to have extreme density in order to be able to reach your cruising altitude / velocity with enough energy left to actually cruise. And for electric aircraft, both the optimal altitude and velocity are very high.

Having actually done a number of calcs on this, I know exactly where Musk is going. VTOL lets you minimize your wing area / wetted area and optimize your wing shape for very high speed travel, and electric motors/batteries have ample power for rapid climbing / acceleration. Without VTOL, you have to have enough wing area for low velocity lift. Density drops off rapidly at high altitudes. Note how climbing just 50% higher than a typical cruising altitude (10 km / 32800 feet) halves the density:

media%2Fec8%2Fec85cb34-52d7-4028-9d01-43944f44f256%2FphpbcEVzD.png


And it just keeps declining like that. Also: the higher the cruising velocity, the more passenger miles you can get out of the aircraft per day, which is key in terms of profitability.

Fuel-propelled aircraft are limited in altitude and velocity by their ability to provide sufficient oxygen, challenges with preventing flameout, and at very high speeds, "frozen" reactions (combustion doesn't have time to complete before the fuel-air mixture leaves the engine). Electric aircraft aren't limited suchly. So you just keep climbing and accelerating, and your ability to cover distance for a given amount of energy keeps rising. Once you go supersonic, drag starts falling, and keeps falling up to hypersonic speeds (although it never gets as low as subsonic... but it's a lot less than the transsonic regime).

transonic-drag.jpg


In short, small increases in energy density will make large - and in fact, increasingly large - differences in electric aircraft range.
 
What would the VTOL aspect make this look like? This?
upload_2018-11-22_21-39-27.jpeg

The props would be good for re-gen but not supersonic. So the moveable engines become:
upload_2018-11-22_21-41-8.jpeg

Which contains:
upload_2018-11-22_21-42-20.jpeg

Which looks like:
upload_2018-11-22_21-43-18.jpeg

Except it needs to be sleeker like:
images

Not this:
220px-F-35B_Joint_Strike_Fighter_%28thrust_vectoring_nozzle_and_lift_fan%29.PNG

I don't see how significant re-gen is compatible with supersonic engines. Aircraft have a back-up RAT that look like this: (Elon will hate it)
images
 
Tagging @MESM here because they have a really good handle on the physics of gas thrusters. Is there some practicality in using compressed air for added additional altitude, and regenerate compressed gas on the way down? Wish I had the math/physics skills you have.
 
Maxwell Technologies acquisition has the following 5 benefits for Tesla:
  1. 16x production density increase
  2. 10-20% cost reduction
  3. Energy density increase: 300 wh/kg - 500 wh/kg
  4. 2x increase in battery pack life
  5. Battery cell production vertical integration
Here's the video explaining the details:
"5 reasons why Tesla bought Maxwell"
Sean Mitchell • 3.8K views 11:26'

If Maxwell tech is as good as this then Elon will want to get on with the jet ASAP.
 
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Reactions: Artful Dodger
If Maxwell tech is as good as this then Elon will want to get on with the jet ASAP.

Yup, Elon said in a recent interview if ~85% of the airframe's mass could be batteries, then 400 whr/kg allows intercontinental flight, though not trans-oceanic (presumably BFR / Starship forfills that role).

For Elon's boy's sake, I hope the airframe mass needs to be more like 50% batteries, and that the Maxcell tech gets there by about College age. Wot, 10 years? How old are the boys? ;)

Cheers!
 
I thought I would set this up as a starting position - to be picked up in 10 years...

1:16 in.

Key points:
VTOL
Supersonic
Re-gen
Very high altitude
High density batt required
Not required yet - I think Elon meant that the battery is not ready rather than the world being ready.

Questions:
Would this be Tesla building upon the battery tech, SpaceX or another company?
Suitable only for long range flight due to high altitude?
Competes with BFR? Non VTOL, short range and subsonic might be a tad simpler starting position.

I think this'll start to get lively long before then
 
Even with a conventional gas turbine engine, supersonic VSTOL aircraft were not practical for the first fifty years of jet flight. With significantly less power density, and considering conventionally-configured, battery-powered aircraft are not even close to being a thing, yet, I'd say an electric Harrier is way, way down the road.
 
Ok just discovered Wright Electric - which is working on a fully electric 188 person airliner with 500km range, enough for Europe shorthaul traffic, for initial launch customer EasyJet. Designed to have swappable batteries. Initial product will be a ten seater hybrid.

Targeting 2027 (but I’m dubious on that given the company seeks to be more in concept/Very early development stage).

Home - Wright Electric

If Tesla has a major breakthrough with Maxwell tech in terms of energy density, would be good to see them working with aircraft manufacturers as a supplier.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Watts_Up
Elon has named his son after the A-12 Archangel - a supersonic aircraft. This could be that Elon is designing the aircraft at home and has pictures out for inspiration. He posted this on Twitter:
EXUNylMU8AA_42h

And has now made this his Twitter handle picture:
P8uRXfrl_400x400.jpg
 
I've been watching battery technology for almost 30 years and there isn't anything, even at the lab stage, that provides the energy density needed for long-range planes. More likely are hybrid planes that take advantage of batteries' power density and the low noise profile of electric drives for takeoff and landing, with fuel-driven turbine-generators for cruising.
This would seem the quickest to get started with electrification for larger long range planes. Hybrid

My personal opinion only:
1. combustion engines for take off (the highest power requirement, right?)
2. electric motor for cruise

[During landing probably start combustion engine for emergency go around if landing aborted]


Reminder that we already have start for all electric planes:
Harbour Air and magniX Announce Successful Flight of World’s First Commercial Electric Airplane – Harbour Air: North America's Largest Seaplane Airline – Since 1982
Short range only solution, 2020.
 
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