VW decides against active-cooling system for e-Golf lithium battery

[Zythryn]

Li-ion batteries dislike heat. In the summer, the cooler the battery pack is kept, the better the longevity will be. No way around that.

Very true. However, different chemistries react somewhat differently.
If it has a lower energy density, it makes sense that it would heat up more slowly under use. However, I would also assume it would heat up due to ambient temps at the same rate.

Because I don't know the specifics, and have not seen test results, I am not going to assume the system won't work well.
Likewise, I won't assume the system will work well.
I will wait to see.

 

[WarpedOne]

Passive = no energy usage i.e. no pumps, fans, heating elements etc.
Active = energy spent on pumps, fans, heating elements etc.

 

[JST]

Passive = no energy usage i.e. no pumps, fans, heating elements etc.
Active = energy spent on pumps, fans, heating elements etc.

It looks like the Leaf uses a battery warmer in at least some circumstances, though generally it's thought to have a passive pack without active thermal management. But maybe the info in this link is out of date?

2012 Nissan Leaf Battery Warmer: More Details - KickingTires

 

[AmpedUP]

'just love to see the competition still not getting even close. At the rate things are going, the Model E /gen III will finally be produced and STILL won't have any real competition.

 

[RobStark]

Didn't notice so much activity on this thread.

Anyways, as noted before Nissan made the same proclamations. They had a new chemistry and had done extensive testing and active cooling was not needed.

Maybe VW has cracked the code. Maybe their chemistry will allow good performance in terms of acceleration(for its class not vs $90k Model S),reliability and long term durability in all climates without active cooling. But I doubt it. Only time will tell for sure.

 

[wallet.dat]

'just love to see the competition still not getting even close. At the rate things are going, the Model E /gen III will finally be produced and STILL won't have any real competition.

And that's what separates you as a Tesla fanboi from an EV enthusiast.

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Maybe VW has cracked the code. Maybe their chemistry will allow good performance in terms of acceleration(for its class not vs $90k Model S),reliability and long term durability in all climates without active cooling. But I doubt it. Only time will tell for sure.

Some in this thread would certainly hope not. They'd rather see EVs fail (unless the innovation comes from Tesla) rather than anybody else make any breakthroughs. They're no better than the ICE cheerleaders, IMHO.

 

[AustinPowers]

and what happens when the temperature plummets? Without active thermal management, will the car even function?

Also, when was the last time VAG was remotely interested in product longevity? VW is particular has falling to pieces just after the warranty expires down to a science.

Erm, I think you are talking about Japanese cars. Those last perfectly for three to four years (perhaps because then the standard lease period is up), then everything breaks in short order.

We have driven VWs for decades, and none ever had any failures to speak of. Otoh, American VWs are far cheaper than European ones. Perhaps VW saves costs in the US by installing crappy components (which I can't really think they would, but who knows, if your experience is as it is, perhaps my theory is right).

Oh, and before everybody jumps at me for defending a German carmaker: I own Tesla stock and I am very interested to see Tesla thrive (expecially so I can drive a great Gen III in a few years time). But as some others have said - the more EVs around the better. And if other companies make good EVs as well, why dismiss their efforts as in vain, before they even had a chance to prove themselves on the market. Like with the i3. Ok, imho that is a frigging ugly thing, but I am sure it is a great EV for what it is trying to be. It is not pretending to be a Model S competitor in any way anyway (pun not intended).

 

[WarpedOne]

Maybe their chemistry will allow good performance in terms of acceleration(for its class not vs $90k Model S),reliability and long term durability in all climates without active cooling.

In battery world there is this magic letter C that tells almost everything there is to tell about burdens that battery needs to bear.
You just look at the eGolf max power output of 85 kW and divide it by battery capacity of 24 kWh and you arrive at 3,5 C.

Max C loads:
eGOlf: 85 kW / 24kWh = 3,5 C
MS60: 225kW / 60kWh = 3,75 C
MS85: 270kW / 85 kWh = 3,17 C
MSP: 310kW / 85 kWh = 3,6 C

These are max C loads that only occur when the pedal is pushed to the metal at the 'right' speeds and as such only give the minor part of the picture, the major part is given by average loads.
Average vehicle speed is around 40mph. Model S needs about 12 kW to maintain this speed. eGolf being lighter needs say 10kW.

Average C loads:
eGolf: 10kW / 24 kWh = 0,4 C
MS60: 12 kW / 60 kWh = 0,2 C
MS85: 12 kW / 85 kWh = 0,14 C

There you have it: the battery in eGolf (and i3, Leaf and all other 'miserable' EVs out there) 'lives' under twice the burden of MS.
Add to these that only MS's battery is actively cooled and the writing is on the wall: either their chemistry is supertolerant to higher temperatures and has much lower internal resistance or there is considerable capacity degradation just waiting to happen.

 

[Doug_G]

Erm, I think you are talking about Japanese cars. Those last perfectly for three to four years (perhaps because then the standard lease period is up), then everything breaks in short order.

I've had exactly that scenario happen. I had a Toyota that had one glitch in four years (oil pressure light came on - the problem was the sensor). Then after just four years it started rusting badly, and stuff started failing. Sold the car to a guy at work, and he had all kinds of problems with it. Felt really bad about it. Luckily (?) his wife wrapped it around a pole without killing herself, thus putting it out of its misery.

That said, I know several VW owners and they report a constant stream of nuisance problems. The quality doesn't seem to be there.

 

[miimura]

Erm, I think you are talking about Japanese cars. Those last perfectly for three to four years (perhaps because then the standard lease period is up), then everything breaks in short order.

We have driven VWs for decades, and none ever had any failures to speak of. Otoh, American VWs are far cheaper than European ones. Perhaps VW saves costs in the US by installing crappy components (which I can't really think they would, but who knows, if your experience is as it is, perhaps my theory is right).

I own a 2001 Passat GLX Wagon which has the 2.8l 30V V6 engine and was built at the VW factory in Emden Germany. The thing has consumed oil from day 1. IMHO this oil consumption led to the early demise of two of the 3 catalytic converters on the car. The first failed at 88,000 miles, as indicated by the check engine light. The emissions warranty that covers the catalytic convertes is 80,000 miles. VW strategically will not do anything about oil consumption until it exceeds 1qt/1,000 miles. I say strategic because this is clearly more than any rational person would think is acceptable, but it's set that high because it will cause things like catalytic converts to fail within the warranty period. This is clearly a total cost minimization strategy, which as you can tell, I'm quite bitter about.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

In battery world there is this magic letter C that tells almost everything there is to tell about burdens that battery needs to bear.
You just look at the eGolf max power output of 85 kW and divide it by battery capacity of 24 kWh and you arrive at 3,5 C.

Max C loads:
eGOlf: 85 kW / 24kWh = 3,5 C
MS60: 225kW / 60kWh = 3,75 C
MS85: 270kW / 85 kWh = 3,17 C
MSP: 310kW / 85 kWh = 3,6 C

These are max C loads that only occur when the pedal is pushed to the metal at the 'right' speeds and as such only give the minor part of the picture, the major part is given by average loads.
Average vehicle speed is around 40mph. Model S needs about 12 kW to maintain this speed. eGolf being lighter needs say 10kW.

Average C loads:
eGolf: 10kW / 24 kWh = 0,4 C
MS60: 12 kW / 60 kWh = 0,2 C
MS85: 12 kW / 85 kWh = 0,14 C

There you have it: the battery in eGolf (and i3, Leaf and all other 'miserable' EVs out there) 'lives' under twice the burden of MS.
Add to these that only MS's battery is actively cooled and the writing is on the wall: either their chemistry is supertolerant to higher temperatures and has much lower internal resistance or there is considerable capacity degradation just waiting to happen.

Well, that's part of the reason why it's harder for other manufacturers to lower actual battery cost. Not only is average driving less demanding, but a larger capacity battery can handle the additional demand of climate control more easily. Then consider a usage pattern where commuting puts more pressure on everyday range and you need a tolerant chemistry, and then without a TMS it needs to be particularly tolerant. Basically the more you ask of the chemistry, the less likely you are to make it cheaply.

 

[AustinPowers]

I own a 2001 Passat GLX Wagon which has the 2.8l 30V V6 engine and was built at the VW factory in Emden Germany. The thing has consumed oil from day 1. IMHO this oil consumption led to the early demise of two of the 3 catalytic converters on the car. The first failed at 88,000 miles, as indicated by the check engine light. The emissions warranty that covers the catalytic convertes is 80,000 miles. VW strategically will not do anything about oil consumption until it exceeds 1qt/1,000 miles. I say strategic because this is clearly more than any rational person would think is acceptable, but it's set that high because it will cause things like catalytic converts to fail within the warranty period. This is clearly a total cost minimization strategy, which as you can tell, I'm quite bitter about.

I can understand you there. Otoh I can't say much about VW 6-cylinder engines as those are very uncommon here. The majority of Passats (especially the company cars) sold here have 4-cylinder TDI engines which consume very little oil and are almost indistructable.

 

[WarpedOne]

Basically the more you ask of the chemistry, the less likely you are to make it cheaply.

Exactly... at the end one gets the battery at half the price, 1/4 capacity, 1/2 the lifetime. Not a good deal.

 

[cwerdna]

Then they shouldn't get a VW. Maintenance will eat you alive. Been there, done that, never again.

Also, when was the last time VAG was remotely interested in product longevity? VW is particular has falling to pieces just after the warranty expires down to a science.

After the warranty expires? It seems like they have failures during the warranty period too. The reliability of many, if not most of their cars across all their model years in Consumer Reports is below average w/many well below average.

Off the top of my head, some of their unreliable vehicles come from Mexico. However, I recall the Touareg comes from Slovakia is incredibly bad in that department. It's too bad the site for this notoriously bad sample is gone: Bad Touareg! Bad Touareg! and we're left to depend on Internet Archive: Digital Library of Free Books, Movies, Music & Wayback Machine.

As someone else said (here or on another forum), since VWs are notorious for electrical problems besides other problems, do you really want to depend on an electric car from them?

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That said, I know several VW owners and they report a constant stream of nuisance problems. The quality doesn't seem to be there.

Yep.

Erm, I think you are talking about Japanese cars. Those last perfectly for three to four years (perhaps because then the standard lease period is up), then everything breaks in short order.

We have driven VWs for decades, and none ever had any failures to speak of. Otoh, American VWs are far cheaper than European ones. Perhaps VW saves costs in the US by installing crappy components (which I can't really think they would, but who knows, if your experience is as it is, perhaps my theory is right)

On the 1st part, nope. My mom's 96 Camry V6 (bought in 96) was dead reliable w/almost no problems until it was totaled in an accident in early 08. However, it can vary a a lot depending on the brand and model. Generally speaking, Toyota/Lexus and Honda/Acura are better. Nissan can be hit or miss (w/some VERY bad misses). FWIW, I'm somewhat of Toyota and Nissan fan.

My former 04 Nissan 350Z bought in September 03 had some probs here and there but all the significant probs were fixed under warranty. The rest I didn't bother with (e.g. buzzes and rattles and a fuel gauge that wouldn't put to full w/a full tank anymore). During its 3 year/36K mile and 5 year/60K mile warranty, I had more trouble w/that Z than my mom's 96 Camry did until it was totaled in 08.

However, given some recent troubles w/my mom's 07 Altima Hybrid and my dad's 02 Rav4, it does seem like the former conveniently had a serious problem (there's a TSB on it re: carbon buildup, possibly requiring a new cylinder head) after the 5 year/60K powertrain warranty was up. My dad's issues were after the 8 year/100K (or 80K?) emissions warranty was up and his ECU prob wasn't covered by Milligan v. Toyota Motor Sales as he was past the coverage period.

My theory about VW is that they build wildly inconsistent quality vehicles. I ALWAYS hear WAY more stories about problematic VWs than I do problematic Hondas or Toyotas. This is despite VW selling few vehicles in the US vs. Toyota and Honda (December 2013: Whimpering In The New Year Edition - Autoblog). And, Toyota is the most popular automaker in California (https://web.archive.org/web/20140217023349/http://www.cncda.org/secure/GetFile.aspx?ID=2668). And yes, I do hear (very few) claims of VWs w/few or no problems...

 

[RobStark]

Erm, I think you are talking about Japanese cars. Those last perfectly for three to four years (perhaps because then the standard lease period is up), then everything breaks in short order.

I think you are confusing that with Volkswagen. Toyota's and Honda's are almost always trouble free for 12-15 years. Nissan and the rest are about as good as VW.

My niece purchased a 2002 Jetta Teutonic Silver 4 cyl gasoline engine with automatic transmission. It was the Trendy vehicle for young ladies in Orange County California.. It could not stay out of the dealership for one reason or another. Once the mechanic claimed it had no oil whatsoever despite the fact she took it to the dealership every 3k miles.

VW is usually at or near the bottom of Consumer Reports Survey for reliablity, the most respected organization in the USA for accessing automotive reliability and durability.

Last year was a really good year for VW. It was the 9th worst brand for automotive reliability.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2013/10/29/consumer-reports-worst-cars/3304413/

 

[cwerdna]

I think you are confusing that with Volkswagen. Toyota's and Honda's are almost always trouble free for 12-15 years. Nissan and the rest are about as good as VW.

My niece purchased a 2002 Jetta Teutonic Silver 4 cyl gasoline engine with automatic transmission. It was the Trendy vehicle for young ladies in Orange County California.. It could not stay out of the dealership for one reason or another. Once the mechanic claimed it had no oil whatsoever despite the fact she took it to the dealership every 3k miles.

VW is usually at or near the bottom of Consumer Reports Survey for reliablity, the most respected organization in the USA for accessing automotive reliability and durability.
...

Re: VW, yep. You sure it was German made and not hecho in Mexico?

Yeah, it seems that Jettas tend to be popular amonst women. I'll be it had a bunch of electrical problems, "engine workshop" pop up at least a few times, interior bits breaking, possibly a peeling interior and falling windows.

The aforementioned 04 Nissan 350Z that I bought in Sept 03 I sold in mid-2011. I actually had virtually trouble with it after the warranties expired, only the fuel gauge calibration prob and some interior buzzes/rattles. (I can say the folks w/03s (first model year) esp. w/manual transmissions weren't so lucky. The manual transmission seemed pretty problematic. Mine was actually an automatic :redface: but its transmission was completely troublefree.)

 

[RobStark]

Re: VW, yep. You sure it was German made and not hecho in Mexico?

Yeah, it seems that Jettas tend to be popular amonst women. I'll be it had a bunch of electrical problems, "engine workshop" pop up at least a few times, interior bits breaking, possibly a peeling interior and falling windows.

The aforementioned 04 Nissan 350Z that I bought in Sept 03 I sold in mid-2011. I actually had virtually trouble with it after the warranties expired, only the fuel gauge calibration prob and some interior buzzes/rattles. (I can say the folks w/03s (first model year) esp. w/manual transmissions weren't so lucky. The manual transmission seemed pretty problematic. Mine was actually an automatic :redface: but its transmission was completely troublefree.)

If it was made in Mexico that is where Wolfsburg chose to make the Jetta.

They sell them as Volkswagen not Pueblovagon.

Ingolstadt has decided to starting building Audis in Mexico too.

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
Volkswagen Group Production Plants lists the Puebla, Mexico plant as producing the Jetta, amongst other cars.

If she no longer has the car, perhaps she has some records w/the VIN so we can figure out if it was built in Deutschland or Mexico? All we need is the leftmost character...

 

[TonyWilliams]

Here's a snapshot of how well the NMC cells handle Phoenix heat:

Phoenix Range Test, Sept 15, 2012