VW Fallout: $2.0 Billion for ZEV Infrastructure Buildout

[Merrill]

If you follow the following link, and then click on the "Electrify America Charging Stations Announcement" download, you can see a press release announcing the opening of the first 8 DC fast charge stations as part of the VW settlement.

Welcome to Electrify America | Commitment

Note that these are not in California, but in Washington D.C. Here are the first couple paragraphs...

So the first 8 upgraded DC fast chargers are now up and running. And it looks like 50 total "stations" (whatever that means) will be in place by September.

So then here in California, CARB has rejected part of the VW plan and we are currently waiting for VW's response to CARB before any actual work starts getting done. In the best case scenario, VW provides an adequate response and the ball starts rolling. In the worst case scenario, the back and forth continues, and the calendar keep rolling along with nothing actually accomplished. Could turn into another example of government bureaucracy at its finest.

A good reminder of why Tesla charged (pun intended) down its own path for the Supercharger network. Its going to be very interesting to see at the end of the first 30 month $200,000,000 investment period what ends up getting built out, compared to Teslas Supercharger network.

The VW money cannot be spent on a "proprietary" (i.e. Tesla Supercharger) standard. So they are installing Chademo and CCS stations. In 30 months, after the Model 3 is out in significant numbers, there could very well be more cars on the road with Tesla connectors than all other connectors combined. And Tesla's Supercharger network will no doubt be larger still than any other DC fast charging network, despite VW's contribution.

If any other automakers decide to "opt into" building cars able to use the Supercharger network, I could easily see a path where the Supercharger network, by default, becomes the most used network for long distance travel. Simply due to the number of cars produced and the size of the available network. I always suspected this might be the case. It will be interesting going forward in the following 3 30-month spending periods how the remaining $600,000,000 will be spent in California.

If other EV makers adopt the Tesla connector and are also able to Supercharge at Tesla stations, is that then by definition not a "proprietary" standard anymore? Could some of the VW money then be spent building out Supercharger only stations?

RT

Let's hope the last paragraph does not happen, do not think Tesla would let that happen.

 

[McRat]

...

So then here in California, CARB has rejected part of the VW plan and we are currently waiting for VW's response to CARB before any actual work starts getting done...

And people laugh at me when I say CARB is not EV friendly, instead, just offering lip service to keep up their budget and staffing.

Everybody will learn about CARB eventually. They will find California's supposed 'John Muir' is actually just a prostitute with a badge. They are criminal as defined by action, but legal as defined by the lawmakers who derive money from it. It's their pistol they use for stickups.

CARB is currently a political organization, not an environmental one. It exists to collect campaign donations by either 'selling' tax exemptions, or tax extortions. It has nothing to do with clean air other than weaponizing it against political enemies.

 

[omgwtfbyobbq]

No, a jury will decide, and politicians. No science or engineers necessary. Remember we get H2 from a lantern battery and two wires in a mason jar of water according to CARB and the EPA.

No, I'm saying every car company will get class action suits, even Tesla. It doesn't mean anything was actually at fault, it just means we need more rich law firms, we are almost out. If that isn't clear, call 1-800-BadDrug and they will clarify.

I custom tune Duramax engines and have torn them down to the last bolt. I know exactly what is in the emissions systems and when they are on or off. It show up in my logs clear as day. And they self test.

If it wasn't their truck, it would be their hip replacement, or cellphone brain cancer, or vaccination induced autism, or GMO cancer, etc, etc. Did you know that if you open a can of hair spray marked FLAMMABLE with a can opener over a lit stove, that you can get $1.7m for that knowledge?

Or heck, Porsche sells you a car you REALLY want. Hard to get. Only for experienced racers, not intended for actual street use. Lots of warnings. You run out of talent at California Speedway and kill someone. Porsche's fault, even though there was absolutely nothing wrong with the car.

The biggest threat to EV's and autonomous vehicles is Class Action Law Firms. We KNOW Li batteries are highly reactive and can develop thermal runaway. We know that not all situations in driving have a perfect solution, sometimes least damage or deaths is the best outcome.

There is no such thing as acceptable risk levels anymore. It's all or nothing. Engineers must be perfect, but that's still not enough. If you make a tough choice, you will lose either way.

References or it never happened.

 

[McRat]

References or it never happened.

AquaNet, Carrera GT, and the beginning: Lithium Ion Battery Indirect Antitrust Litigation - Class Action Claims (CAC) Recovery Anti-trust in a highly competitive market with rapidly falling prices, all defendants claiming innocence but some settling for nuisance level amounts.

You would THINK the largest buyers of Li cells (notebook makers) would be suing if it were true. It would have harmed notebook sales.

 

[omgwtfbyobbq]

AquaNet, Carrera GT, and the beginning: Lithium Ion Battery Indirect Antitrust Litigation - Class Action Claims (CAC) Recovery Anti-trust in a highly competitive market with rapidly falling prices, all defendants claiming innocence but some settling for nuisance level amounts.

You would THINK the largest buyers of Li cells (notebook makers) would be suing if it were true. It would have harmed notebook sales.

What does a class action lawsuit over price fixing have to do with thermal runaway in li-ion batteries? And where are references for all of the other things you actually included in your post?

 

[McRat]

What does a class action lawsuit over price fixing have to do with thermal runaway in li-ion batteries? And where are references for all of the other things you actually included in your post?

Well, I could have said standard design ignition switches, saddle tanks, rear engine car designs, standard sedan gas tank placement, or hot coffee, but what fun would that be? The thermal runaway is just an educated guess since the cellphone issues. I'm not even sure who the first automotive target will be.

I predict will we see a CAL lithium propulsion battery fires before 2020. CALs are a huge industry today, so only how soon it occurs will be a gamble, not the actual attempt. But the big Lotto Winner will be striking down semi-autonomy systems. GM will probably be the first defendent even though they have not sold their system to the public yet.

And back to the original subject, With GM and Dodge now a defendants, soon Ford will be. All use the same technology core that causes NOx. High boost levels. A feeding frenzy is kicking in. They aren't referred to as sharks for no reason.

 

[mspohr]

Well, I could have said standard design ignition switches, saddle tanks, rear engine car designs, standard sedan gas tank placement, or hot coffee, but what fun would that be? The thermal runaway is just an educated guess since the cellphone issues. I'm not even sure who the first automotive target will be.

I predict will we see a CAL lithium propulsion battery fires before 2020. CALs are a huge industry today, so only how soon it occurs will be a gamble, not the actual attempt. But the big Lotto Winner will be striking down semi-autonomy systems. GM will probably be the first defendent even though they have not sold their system to the public yet.

And back to the original subject, With GM and Dodge now a defendants, soon Ford will be. All use the same technology core that causes NOx. High boost levels. A feeding frenzy is kicking in. They aren't referred to as sharks for no reason.

This makes no sense. What are you talking about? Have you taken speech lessons from Trump?
It would be useful if you stuck to one subject per post and stopped rambling and provided some references for your inflammatory assertions.

 

[McRat]

This makes no sense. What are you talking about? Have you taken speech lessons from Trump?
It would be useful if you stuck to one subject per post and stopped rambling and provided some references for your inflammatory assertions.

You should probably read the whole thread. Why don't you start there instead, instead of doing a bad Pelosi impression?

Trivia - I have never watched Miss America, Apprentices, Shark Tank, stay at or gambled at any Trump property, and probably never gave a dime to his family AFAIK. He was elected by the US Democratic National Committee through their tragically awful activities and anti-US-citizen policies. I'm not a Democrat anymore so it was not I who elected him or made California the laughing stock of the US and perhaps the most corrupt state in the Union, which is a tough act when you're competing against NY.

I will admit, I voted against the prostitute Clinton because of her secret meeting with Wall Street and massive campaign funding from bankers.

If you believe today's class action environment is not a serious risk to the next steps in automotive technologies, there are no facts or history that are going to convince you otherwise. So why respond? I know, the Russians made you do it.

 

[mspohr]

You should probably read the whole threat. Why don't you start there instead, instead of doing a bad Pelosi impression?

Trivia - I have never watched Miss America, Apprentices, Shark Tank, stay at or gambled at any Trump property, and probably never gave a dime to his family. He was elected by the US Democratic National Committee through their tragically awful activities and anti-US-citizen policies.

I have read this whole "threat" (sic), even going back to try to figure out where it went off the rails and you're still not making any sense. Perhaps it would be better to start a new thread(t) with a well defined topic rather than random rants. This thread is about VW infrastructure buildout and it would be best to keep your comments on topic.

 

[McRat]

I have read this whole "threat" (sic), even going back to try to figure out where it went off the rails and you're still not making any sense. Perhaps it would be better to start a new thread(t) with a well defined topic rather than random rants. This thread is about VW infrastructure buildout and it would be best to keep your comments on topic.

OMG!!! The Spelling Police did not get the memo about auto correct/complete!!! Call the Computer Tech Police on them!!!

Clue - You know you are dealing with a rookie when you see them correct spelling on the internet or text messages. They have no real world experience at digital communications.

 

[Electroman]

I have read this whole "threat" (sic), even going back to try to figure out where it went off the rails and you're still not making any sense. Perhaps it would be better to start a new thread(t) with a well defined topic rather than random rants. This thread is about VW infrastructure buildout and it would be best to keep your comments on topic.

I am equally confused.. All I understood was, Hillary is a prostitute and Trump is our messiah

 

[McRat]

I have read this whole "threat" (sic), even going back to try to figure out where it went off the rails and you're still not making any sense. Perhaps it would be better to start a new thread(t) with a well defined topic rather than random rants. This thread is about VW infrastructure buildout and it would be best to keep your comments on topic.

Factoid: Topic is VW Diesel Lawsuit and EV Buildout. Your Random Trump Rants implies Trump owns VW. Not true.
Factoid: CARB interference with EV buildout is on topic.
Factoid: Class Action suits are a two-edged sword. In the VW case, it helps EVs. However, do not believe that EVs are immune from CALs. Money is the chum in the water, and victims are chosen by how easy they are to catch, not by whether they are good or bad.

 

[Jeff N]

So the first 8 upgraded DC fast chargers are now up and running. And it looks like 50 total "stations" (whatever that means) will be in place by September.

I can't download the latest press release at the moment due to some kind of server error at the EA website. But, in the part you quoted in your post, EA/VW referred to 50 chargers rather than 50 stations. When EA/VW says "stations" they mean charging locations that may have multiple chargers co-located.

Electrify America and EVgo announced this project a few weeks ago here:
https://www.electrifyamerica.com/downloads/get/883373

That release refers to 52 upgraded chargers. Although it does not say so, I suspect they just upgraded older and slower chargers to be "50 kW" chargers as an easy and quick way of showing progress.

This fits into the "community" wedge of their spending pie which is a mix of L2 charging for long-term parking areas like workplaces and residential complexes together with 50 kW and 150 kW fast charger depots or plazas in 16 cities nationwide. The present announcement covers a small number of chargers in a subset of the metro communities identified as part of the national non-CA plan.

So then here in California, CARB has rejected part of the VW plan and we are currently waiting for VW's response to CARB before any actual work starts getting done. In the best case scenario, VW provides an adequate response and the ball starts rolling. In the worst case scenario, the back and forth continues, and the calendar keep rolling along with nothing actually accomplished. Could turn into another example of government bureaucracy at its finest.

I think that's an overly pessimistic reading of the immediate situation. CARB basically demanded more details to be added to the existing submitted plan. They didn't reject the original plan but instead asked for an addendum. Since the original plan was vague about actual specific charging locations CARB also asked EA/VW to be mindful of CARB's direction from the legislature regarding the desire to ensure percentage targets for infrastructure placement in economically-challenged areas.

The new demand from CARB creates more work for the paper pushers but it doesn't necessarily prevent progress from the engineers and program managers who are actually planning and negotiating contracts for many locations within California. CARB's negotiations also have no direct impact on planning for the other 39+ states covered by the first 2.5 year cycle of spending.

A good reminder of why Tesla charged (pun intended) down its own path for the Supercharger network. Its going to be very interesting to see at the end of the first 30 month $200,000,000 investment period what ends up getting built out, compared to Teslas Supercharger network.

The plan outline represents a scope and pace of development that roughly matches what Tesla did with Superchargers beginning in late 2012.

If other EV makers adopt the Tesla connector and are also able to Supercharge at Tesla stations, is that then by definition not a "proprietary" standard anymore? Could some of the VW money then be spent building out Supercharger only stations?

Doubtful. I think Tesla would be required to submit their design to a recognized standards group for "refinement" and approval before the existing settlement language would allow VW to spend money on it. Anything is possible, but this clearly won't change anything for the first spending cycle.

 

[RubberToe]

Let's hope the last paragraph does not happen, do not think Tesla would let that happen.

Merrill,
Not sure I understand your concern about this possibility: "If other EV makers adopt the Tesla connector and are also able to Supercharge at Tesla stations, is that then by definition not a "proprietary" standard anymore? Could some of the VW money then be spent building out Supercharger only stations?"

Say the upcoming Lucid Air negotiated an agreement with Tesla to allow the Lucid to use the current Supercharger network. Every time a Lucid charged at a Tesla Supercharger station, Tesla would get reimbursed by Lucid for the cost of the power, and some small additional amount so Tesla actually makes a profit. Lucid saves money by not having to build out their own network, or needing to worry about whether there are enough DC fast chargers in place to allow their cars to do long distance traveling. It seems like a win-win for both Tesla and Lucid. This assumes the Tesla Supercharger network is sufficient to handle a few thousand additional Lucid cars in the U.S.

WRT another entity (i.e. VW) deploying Supercharger stations that follow the Tesla Supercharger protocol: Any car maker making cars that follow the Tesla charging protocol could charge at those "VW Supercharger" stations, for whatever price VW ends up charging them. Tesla cars could also use those "VW Supercharge stations", presumably at the same cost that any other cars would be charged. Any cars wanting to charge at an actual Tesla Supercharger have to follow the rules set by Tesla. This also seems like another win-win, since Tesla cars might have additional Supercharging options going forward.

Having said all that, it isn't clear to me that VW or anyone else plans on installing charging stations that follow only the Tesla Supercharging connector/protocol. It could be more likely that the DC fast chargers that you see now with both Chademo and CCS will instead have 3 cables and not two, with one being a Tesla connector. that obviously adds to the cost of the stations. But imagine a future where the number of Teslas on the road is 3x the number of non-Teslas on the road. This could easily be the case in 2019. Then you are in a situation where VW may be spending $200,000,000 over the next 30 months in California on charging infrastructure that doesn't have a fast charging connector that (without an adapter) can plug into 75% of the EV's currently on the road.

RT

 

[RubberToe]

And people laugh at me...

Well, we MOSTLY are laughing WITH you...

RT

 

[Merrill]

Merrill,
Not sure I understand your concern about this possibility: "If other EV makers adopt the Tesla connector and are also able to Supercharge at Tesla stations, is that then by definition not a "proprietary" standard anymore? Could some of the VW money then be spent building out Supercharger only stations?"

Say the upcoming Lucid Air negotiated an agreement with Tesla to allow the Lucid to use the current Supercharger network. Every time a Lucid charged at a Tesla Supercharger station, Tesla would get reimbursed by Lucid for the cost of the power, and some small additional amount so Tesla actually makes a profit. Lucid saves money by not having to build out their own network, or needing to worry about whether there are enough DC fast chargers in place to allow their cars to do long distance traveling. It seems like a win-win for both Tesla and Lucid. This assumes the Tesla Supercharger network is sufficient to handle a few thousand additional Lucid cars in the U.S.

WRT another entity (i.e. VW) deploying Supercharger stations that follow the Tesla Supercharger protocol: Any car maker making cars that follow the Tesla charging protocol could charge at those "VW Supercharger" stations, for whatever price VW ends up charging them. Tesla cars could also use those "VW Supercharge stations", presumably at the same cost that any other cars would be charged. Any cars wanting to charge at an actual Tesla Supercharger have to follow the rules set by Tesla. This also seems like another win-win, since Tesla cars might have additional Supercharging options going forward.

Having said all that, it isn't clear to me that VW or anyone else plans on installing charging stations that follow only the Tesla Supercharging connector/protocol. It could be more likely that the DC fast chargers that you see now with both Chademo and CCS will instead have 3 cables and not two, with one being a Tesla connector. that obviously adds to the cost of the stations. But imagine a future where the number of Teslas on the road is 3x the number of non-Teslas on the road. This could easily be the case in 2019. Then you are in a situation where VW may be spending $200,000,000 over the next 30 months in California on charging infrastructure that doesn't have a fast charging connector that (without an adapter) can plug into 75% of the EV's currently on the road.

RT

I guess my concern is that as of today there are problems at some Tesla SC stations where cars are lined up waiting and as they roll out the Model 3 and more and more Tesla's the existing infrastructure cannot keep up with the volume.If you added other manufacturers that could use the Tesla SC system you would have a big problem.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

I guess my concern is that as of today there are problems at some Tesla SC stations where cars are lined up waiting and as they roll out the Model 3 and more and more Tesla's the existing infrastructure cannot keep up with the volume.If you added other manufacturers that could use the Tesla SC system you would have a big problem.

Consider that Superchargers provide discrete amounts of capacity.
But also consider while the network is incomplete there are paths that cannot be traveled.
Right now when using the monies, Tesla has to choose between completing coverage and adding capacity.
As they add coverage they're overbuilding in some locations.
But at higher volumes, they would have complete coverage and then Supercharger installation would be all about providing the necessary capacity.

More cars means more money for Superchargers.
More Superchargers means improving coverage.
Improving coverage means more building dedicated to capacity.

 

[TexasEV]

I guess my concern is that as of today there are problems at some Tesla SC stations where cars are lined up waiting and as they roll out the Model 3 and more and more Tesla's the existing infrastructure cannot keep up with the volume.If you added other manufacturers that could use the Tesla SC system you would have a big problem.

No, because the other manufacturers would pay to add capacity proportionally. Elon explained this approach several years ago, but no takers so far (that we know of).

 

[RubberToe]

ARB has just received a supplemental plan from VW per the main page:

Volkswagen Settlement - California ZEV Investments

The supplemental plan can be found here:

https://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/vw_in...nia_zev_investment_plan_supplement_062917.pdf

Per the first link, ARB will accept public input and at a board meeting later in the summer consider the modified plan. I have not had time to digest the supplement yet (37 pages). Enjoy!

RT

 

[RubberToe]

My first take on the first 10 pages read is that I agree that VW is doing the right thing. They are pushing back against ARB, and making the case that they want the investment to result in usable deployments for the long term. And they also have a good point that it doesn't make sense to plan the out year cycles until they have data back from the first deployment.

RT