VW Fallout: $2.0 Billion for ZEV Infrastructure Buildout

[Jeff N]

As a resident of VA... " a corner parking area of a large rural Exxon station known as Brugh’s Mill Country Store in Fincastle, Virginia just off US-81 about 20 miles north of Roanoke." is ... uhh... an "interesting" choice for one of the first locations.

Maybe it’s the charging location that gets passed over if you have a large enough battery pack...

It does look rather isolated but is either relatively new or well maintained. It has a restaurant of sorts with something more than hot dogs spinning on steel rollers although it looks like nobody is eating there when they took the photos:

 

[scaesare]

Maybe it’s the charging location that gets passed over if you have a large enough battery pack...

It does look rather isolated but is either relatively new or well maintained. It has a restaurant of sorts with something more than hot dogs spinning on steel rollers although it looks like nobody is eating there when they took the photos:

It's the relatively isolated nature of that location on a route that's not exactly between major locations. It's a pretty odd island.

 

[BerTX]

It's the relatively isolated nature of that location on a route that's not exactly between major locations. It's a pretty odd island.

Probably a beta site? Get their methods down in a place with not much traffic. Start off in a big city and have 500 cars lined up waiting to use it is a prescription for disaster for day one.

 

[RubberToe]

There is a new Electrify America press release out today. They announced several new DCFC partners. The biggest news is that there is going to be a "First Charging" ceremony at the first location they are lighting up! This is two days from now on 4-25-18. Some of y'all need to head down there to get in line and lets gets some reports of how this latest Tesla Killing charger deployment is working.

The Chicopee, Ma. Fire Department has agreed to station several of their trucks within spewing distance and will be ready at a moments notice. Charge at your own risk !

 

[scaesare]

Probably a beta site? Get their methods down in a place with not much traffic. Start off in a big city and have 500 cars lined up waiting to use it is a prescription for disaster for day one.

Seems tentative.

The cynic in me almost wants to say that a non-optimal set of fast charging locations would go along with other things a company vested in petroleum consuming products might do with their vehicles like limiting availability to a minimum of sales locations, not advertising, producing the minimum amount of units necessary, etc...

But surely VW wouldn't be forced to spend this money, and then be spiteful enough to blow it on discontiguous set of illogically placed chargers just in order to say, "Look, nobody wants to use em! Let's build some more di

I understand this is just the first move... but it sure is a quiet one. I'm not familiar with MA like I am VA... but "Chicopee" doesn't seem much better.

 

[McRat]

Seems tentative.

The cynic in me almost wants to say that a non-optimal set of fast charging locations would go along with other things a company vested in petroleum consuming products might do with their vehicles like limiting availability to a minimum of sales locations, not advertising, producing the minimum amount of units necessary, etc...

I understand this is just the first move... but it sure is a quiet one. I'm not familiar with MA like I am VA... but "Chicopee" doesn't seem much better.

There is no Anti-EV MasterPlan. Not sure why folk still believe that after 110 years.

It is a competing technology, but today, there is Pro-EV MasterPlan. Gas cars pay a Guzzler Tax, get tighter and tighter CAFE and emissions restrictions (yes, even now), get no Fed or State donations to buyers, can't sell carbon credits, etc.

The truth is, if automakers could get people to buy EVs a lot of their headaches go away. ie - If VW profits stay the same, but they do not have to qualify everything they sell for emission and mileage, they can get new designs to market quicker, they do not have warranty the emissions for 50-100,000 miles, they don't have to do emission-related recalls, they would reduce their vendor list, less general warranty losses, etc, etc.

 

[scaesare]

There is no Anti-EV MasterPlan. Not sure why folk still believe that after 110 years.

It is a competing technology, but today, there is Pro-EV MasterPlan. Gas cars pay a Guzzler Tax, get tighter and tighter CAFE and emissions restrictions (yes, even now), get no Fed or State donations to buyers, can't sell carbon credits, etc.

The truth is, if automakers could get people to buy EVs a lot of their headaches go away. ie - If VW profits stay the same, but they do not have to qualify everything they sell for emission and mileage, they can get new designs to market quicker, they do not have warranty the emissions for 50-100,000 miles, they don't have to do emission-related recalls, they would reduce their vendor list, less general warranty losses, etc, etc.

Not sure what the definition of "master plan" is... is that within a single company or does it encompass multiple manufactures? A conspiracy with suppliers? Collusion with petroleum industry? Being in bed with some political entities?

I don't have reason to believe that there's a conspiracy that reached every last corner. But to suggest that there aren't at least agendas within some companies influenced by some of the above is pretty naïve, IMO.

And as I said.... it was a cynical comment. It could very well questionable execution that is placing the first two EA chargers in Timbuktu. I never rule out incompetence.

Or it could be a brilliant move... in which case I'll gladly eat my words when the network becomes wildly successful.

 

[mspohr]

There is no Anti-EV MasterPlan. Not sure why folk still believe that after 110 years.

It is a competing technology, but today, there is Pro-EV MasterPlan. Gas cars pay a Guzzler Tax, get tighter and tighter CAFE and emissions restrictions (yes, even now), get no Fed or State donations to buyers, can't sell carbon credits, etc.

The truth is, if automakers could get people to buy EVs a lot of their headaches go away. ie - If VW profits stay the same, but they do not have to qualify everything they sell for emission and mileage, they can get new designs to market quicker, they do not have warranty the emissions for 50-100,000 miles, they don't have to do emission-related recalls, they would reduce their vendor list, less general warranty losses, etc, etc.

GM, Firestone Tire, Standard Oil of California bought up all the city trolley cars and retired them so that people would buy their cars and fossil busses. 110 years ago.
Yes there was and is a conspiracy.
General Motors streetcar conspiracy - Wikipedia
It continued in the 70s
At the hearings in April 1974, San Francisco mayor and antitrust attorney Joseph Alioto testified that "General Motors and the automobile industry generally exhibit a kind of monopoly evil", adding that GM "has carried on a deliberate concerted action with the oil companies and tire companies..

 

[McRat]

Not sure what the definition of "master plan" is... is that within a single company or does it encompass multiple manufactures? A conspiracy with suppliers? Collusion with petroleum industry? Being in bed with some political entities?

I don't have reason to believe that there's a conspiracy that reached every last corner. But to suggest that there aren't at least agendas within some companies influenced by some of the above is pretty naïve, IMO.

And as I said.... it was a cynical comment. It could very well questionable execution that is placing the first two EA chargers in Timbuktu. I never rule out incompetence.

Or it could be a brilliant move... in which case I'll gladly eat my words when the network becomes wildly successful.

You can call it naive if you like. But if folk started buying 3 wheeled cars painted in polka dots powered on cow dung, with 12 seats, everybody would have at least one variant in their lineup.

The car industry has never successfully told people what to buy. That's a government bureaucracy responsibility and to a lessor extent a personal decision.

In any case, it appears they are building a corridor between Knoxville and Harrisburg on I-81, which is 540 miles. Note that most the BEVs in the US are short range. Soon that will change, but it's too early to scrap 200,000 cars that are 7 to 0 years old. Most BEV models sold today are short range. So that location made sense. It's not actually in Fincastle. It's on the I-81 50 miles from the other CCS locations. They need the CCS grid to be 50 miles. Which sounds like a PITA, but gas stations are much closer together and gas vehicles go at least 100 miles. Yeah, a chopper with a peanut tank will have you pushing the bike in under 120 miles if you ride slow.

And the truth? The way Americans drive, an 80 mile EV will git-er-dun. Remote charging is for the rare times you must ferry a car or more commonly need to visit a nearby town that is out of range. Cannonball Baker entries need not apply.

Now if the goal is to Save The Whales, 80 mile EVs make the most sense as far as BEVs go. You can make 5 BEVs with 80 miles or 1 BEV with 400 miles. But that 'people won't buy them' thingy kicks in.

 

[McRat]

GM, Firestone Tire, Standard Oil of California bought up all the city trolley cars and retired them so that people would buy their cars and fossil busses. 110 years ago.
Yes there was and is a conspiracy.
General Motors streetcar conspiracy - Wikipedia
It continued in the 70s
At the hearings in April 1974, San Francisco mayor and antitrust attorney Joseph Alioto testified that "General Motors and the automobile industry generally exhibit a kind of monopoly evil", adding that GM "has carried on a deliberate concerted action with the oil companies and tire companies..

IIRC the Firestone Building is a shopping mall, and Standard Oil stations are gone and streetcars never caught on in most cities. You'd think street cars would be everywhere in all cities now that GM builds a handful of buses a year.

The biggest crime General Motors did skips right past all the Black Helicopters Flown By Elvis groupies.

GM is responsible for leaded gasoline. Streetcars and Buses aren't even a blip on the radar when it comes to damage that tetraethyl lead caused.

Streetcars are a crap technology that kills people, then the city gets sued for it. It's expensive, rigid, cannot adjust to traffic flow changes, induces/forces/demands innercity gridlock. Street cars died just like carbon paper and typewriters did. The technology works, it's just expensive, slow, unforgiving, and inefficient.

 

[Dr. J]

streetcars never caught on in most cities.

That's clearly not true.

Here's the one I'm most familiar with: ELECTRIC INTERURBAN RAILWAYS | The Handbook of Texas Online| Texas State Historical Association (TSHA).

 

[mspohr]

IIRC the Firestone Building is a shopping mall, and Standard Oil stations are gone and streetcars never caught on in most cities. You'd think street cars would be everywhere in all cities now that GM builds a handful of buses a year.

The biggest crime General Motors did skips right past all the Black Helicopters Flown By Elvis groupies.

GM is responsible for leaded gasoline. Streetcars and Buses aren't even a blip on the radar when it comes to damage that tetraethyl lead caused.

Streetcars are a crap technology that kills people, then the city gets sued for it. It's expensive, rigid, cannot adjust to traffic flow changes, induces/forces/demands innercity gridlock. Street cars died just like carbon paper and typewriters did. The technology works, it's just expensive, slow, unforgiving, and inefficient.

Most cities had healthy functional streetcar systems.
GM (Standard Oil, etc.) killed the electric streetcars so that they could sell fossil busses and cars. The reason you don't see streetcars is that GM bought them all and junked them.
Standard Oil has morphed into Exxon.

 

[scaesare]

The car industry has never successfully told people what to buy. That's a government bureaucracy responsibility and to a lessor extent a personal decision.

LOL. As if attempting to either influence, promote, or only offer what is in corporate best interest isn't what every company, car companies included, do every day. Granted "told" what to buy?, no. But denied what folks wanted in some cases? Absolutely.

Or, offered what was in the company's best interests, even if it wasn't in the consumer's.

I'm not vilifying that per se... but let's not pretend it doesn't happen. What I do take issue with is being disingenuous, or outright deceit. And car companies have done that as well.

Remember, this is VW we are talking about who is largely funding the EA neatwork... as a direct result of their deceit. You know, the same VW that just proclaimed a renaissance for diesel...

So, am I stating I think they are deliberately tanking the charger infrastructure? No. Would I put it past them? Also no.

And the truth? The way Americans drive, an 80 mile EV will git-er-dun. Remote charging is for the rare times you must ferry a car or more commonly need to visit a nearby town that is out of range. Cannonball Baker entries need not apply.

But manufacturers know that buying a car that doesn't meet 5% of the average person's driving needs isn't likely to fly. So sure, the average number works. But If you can't visit Grandma every month or 2 because there's no infrastructure to make it practical to do so, then it makes it rather hard to settle on that EV, even though it can get you to and from work every day.

 

[SageBrush]

Most cities had healthy functional streetcar systems.

The cases I read about did not have healthy (profitable) systems and the media was used to frame them as taxpayer boondoggles.
That was what made it so easy for Standard Oil and friends (GM) to buy them.

I don't doubt the conspiracy aspect and those companies rather clearly acted against the public good but the unfortunate context was an apathetic and poorly informed populace. Sound familiar ? The other point worth mentioning is Detroit was not thinking of replacing the streetcar system with private cars but with public transit buses. They probably made an at least superficially convincing argument in the day that a bus system is more efficient and inexpensive due to versatility. It might even have been true.

By the way, the Disney movie Who framed Roger Rabbit uses the conspiracy as the main plot. It is REALLY well done, but probably a bit too subtle for most viewers to understand. It is the only Disney movie I can think of that put social criticism front and center.

 

[Jeff N]

They need the CCS grid to be 50 miles.

The average distance between locations that Electrify America is planning for is around 70-80 miles apart. The longest distance is 120 miles.

 

[McRat]

That's clearly not true.

Here's the one I'm most familiar with: ELECTRIC INTERURBAN RAILWAYS | The Handbook of Texas Online| Texas State Historical Association (TSHA).

Read your link. Retired in 1948. Probably because the war effort halted procurement of buses.

 

[McRat]

Most cities had healthy functional streetcar systems.
GM (Standard Oil, etc.) killed the electric streetcars so that they could sell fossil busses and cars. The reason you don't see streetcars is that GM bought them all and junked them.
Standard Oil has morphed into Exxon.

First let's kill Roger Rabbit. The LA trolley system was subsidized to sell real estate developments outside the city center, the suburb structure we know and love today, had to be subsidized early so the developers could make money. Even today, many if not most California politicians at all levels are deeply tied into real estate development as a source of personal income. That's how you get obsolete trolleys built in LA. Yes, they were built during the decline and bankruptcy of ground level rail transit.

Half the streetcar infrastructure was in bankruptcy by 1918. Cities today that still have ground level commuter rail grids have reduced operations. They have not increased as populations grew.

Why would GM buy trolley lines, try to operate them at a profit, only to tear them down? Why would they expand some of the lines in an effort to make them profitable? What GM was trying to do was monopolize ground transportation. GM made cars, trucks, and trains. They bought other car, truck, and train companies. When they started buying up mass transit grids, is when they ended up in court. They were accused of trying to run a monopoly, and were fined $1. Because while they were dominant, they weren't the only players.

In any case urban ground level high density fixed rail would be a boondoggle in the 20th century. Why they were ever built past 1900 is a mystery that can only be considered poor engineering, or corruption. Before the automobile, they made sense. After the automobile and suburban/urban hub city layout structure, it was completely unworkable.

BTW - How did GM get rid of most long distance passenger railroads and why did GM build excellent locomotives until 2005?

 

[mspohr]

First let's kill Roger Rabbit. The LA trolley system was subsidized to sell real estate developments outside the city center, the suburb structure we know and love today, had to be subsidized early so the developers could make money. Even today, many if not most California politicians at all levels are deeply tied into real estate development as a source of personal income. That's how you get obsolete trolleys built in LA. Yes, they were built during the decline and bankruptcy of ground level rail transit.

Half the streetcar infrastructure was in bankruptcy by 1918. Cities today that still have ground level commuter rail grids have reduced operations. They have not increased as populations grew.

Why would GM buy trolley lines, try to operate them at a profit, only to tear them down? Why would they expand some of the lines in an effort to make them profitable? What GM was trying to do was monopolize ground transportation. GM made cars, trucks, and trains. They bought other car, truck, and train companies. When they started buying up mass transit grids, is when they ended up in court. They were accused of trying to run a monopoly, and were fined $1. Because while they were dominant, they weren't the only players.

In any case urban ground level high density fixed rail would be a boondoggle in the 20th century. Why they were ever built past 1900 is a mystery that can only be considered poor engineering, or corruption. Before the automobile, they made sense. After the automobile and suburban/urban hub city layout structure, it was completely unworkable.

BTW - How did GM get rid of most long distance passenger railroads and why did GM build excellent locomotives until 2005?

I guess we need to point to Europe which has had healthy functional urban and long distance electric rail systems for more than 100 years.
How do they do it? Perhaps they keep their psychopahic corporations from destroying public infrastructure?

 

[McRat]

I guess we need to point to Europe which has had healthy functional urban and long distance electric rail systems for more than 100 years.
How do they do it? Perhaps they keep their psychopahic corporations from destroying public infrastructure?

Point to New York. Rails are underground, and people live in the sky. London relies on it's Underground too, with perhaps less vertical development. I liked the Eurostar, and wish they had one to Las Vegas from SoCal. That's not happening even though that's probably one of the few routes that could show a profit in the US.

We have commuter surface rail in our town. It's not busy. Nothing to do with GM and buses are sparse and empty. All our mass transit is subsidized.

And our idiot governor thinks everybody wants to go to Bakersfield by train. No Jerry. Bakersfield is where you flee from, it's not a destination.

 

[McRat]

The average distance between locations that Electrify America is planning for is around 70-80 miles apart. The longest distance is 120 miles.

I guess some segments will be 50 miles like you see in some areas in California. Whether it's all EA or not.

In the long run, higher density remote charging grids will eventually occur. Currently, for remote charging, the grid determines when and where you stop, unlike gas cars. "I need to stop for juice soon" will be a decision someday. Today it's a part of trip planning.

Kind of like rail. You go where the rail is. And it's why the gas automobile won.

Even when EVs reach 500 miles of range, much like gas stations, the density will increase. If it is profitable to own an EV charging site that is. Because you will want to choose where you stop. "Let's stop for a rest break" when the next charger is an hour away isn't how people like to drive.