VW may export TDI's to sell in other countries. Should we sabotage the engines?

[gene]

I have a TDI which will be going back to VW. I have read in recent articles that the judge is allowing for VW to export these to other countries with less stringent pollution laws, or to repair them (can we trust VW?) and resell them in the USA. My tendency is to pour a spoonful of valve grinding compound into the motor upon return. This will seize the motor up through main bearing damage fairly quickly. I hate the waste of it but maybe some of you can express your thoughts on whether it is better to render the TDI useless, or allow VW to sell it elsewhere. These forums have intelligent and thoughtful posters so I look forward to your feedback.

What will VW do with TDI diesel buyback cars? It's not what you think

 

[BluestarE3]

Are there any stipulations that the car you sell back to VW must be in working order?

Even if they have to crush all the recalled vehicles, the loss will likely get passed down to consumers of all their vehicles in the form of higher prices.

 

[deonb]

It is not CO2 emissions - the polution from these cars are localized.

If another country allows them - why should they not be allowed to have them?

 

[gene]

Are there any stipulations that the car you sell back to VW must be in working order?

It has to be driven in on its own power. Valve grinding compound would take some miles of driving to do it's thing. So you can pour some in and still drive the car to get your check.

 

[B8BB8B]

There goes all your years worth of Karma points gone with one spoonful.

 

[gene]

There goes all your years worth of Karma points gone with one spoonful.

I'm hoping I can be talked out of that spoonful. You pose a very good argument!

 

[Jeff N]

I have a TDI which will be going back to VW. I have read in recent articles that the judge is allowing for VW to export these to other countries with less stringent pollution laws, or to repair them (can we trust VW?) and resell them in the USA.

The article does tend to imply that VW can fix and then resell these cars or it can just export them without fixing them.

This is incorrect.

The VW settlement requires VW to fix the cars before either reselling or exporting them.

 

[gene]

The article does tend to imply that VW can fix and then resell these cars or it can just export them without fixing them.

This is incorrect.

The VW settlement requires VW to fix the cars before either reselling or exporting them.

But should we trust VW? Will there be oversight?

 

[glhs272]

Take a look at it from a big picture environmental perspective. Will crushing all these VW TDI diesels before they are worn out be an overall good thing for the environment? Will it reduce CO2 pollution? Will it reduce other pollutants, even if local?
Generally, building a car takes a lot of energy (Not sure how much, but maybe a 1/3 of lifetime emissions), so using "used" cars as long as possible is a good thing from an environmental perspective. By taking these used vehicles off the road, they will presumably have to be replaced by new vehicles. Of course replacing an old inefficient vehicle with a much more efficient new vehicle could help that equation. However, these TDI diesels really are rather efficient from a MPG (overall CO2) perspective. And sadly most cars built today are not really much better, unless perhaps they are being replaced by an electric.

In an anecdotal example is my brother has a TDI for his wife. They are returning it ASAP. But unfortunately she is dead set on replacing it with a large extended cab pickup truck with 1/3 of the mileage at best.

In the end, this whole affair is likely to simply produce more pollution of all types than if they never made the vehicles to begin with and/or just stopped selling them when they didn't pass regulations. FU VW!

 

[McRat]

Take a look at it from a big picture environmental perspective. Will crushing all these VW TDI diesels before they are worn out be an overall good thing for the environment? Will it reduce CO2 pollution? Will it reduce other pollutants, even if local?
Generally, building a car takes a lot of energy (Not sure how much, but maybe a 1/3 of lifetime emissions), so using "used" cars as long as possible is a good thing from an environmental perspective. By taking these used vehicles off the road, they will presumably have to be replaced by new vehicles. Of course replacing an old inefficient vehicle with a much more efficient new vehicle could help that equation. However, these TDI diesels really are rather efficient from a MPG (overall CO2) perspective. And sadly most cars built today are not really much better, unless perhaps they are being replaced by an electric.

In an anecdotal example is my brother has a TDI for his wife. They are returning it ASAP. But unfortunately she is dead set on replacing it with a large extended cab pickup truck with 1/3 of the mileage at best.

In the end, this whole affair is likely to simply produce more pollution of all types than if they never made the vehicles to begin with and/or just stopped selling them when they didn't pass regulations. FU VW!

There is an extended cab midsized pickup that gets 30 mpg, or a full sized that gets 24. So the VW was getting 90mpg? Or at least 72mpg? Maybe you are thinking about import trucks. They suck fuel like there's a hole in the tank.

I sort of find that hard to believe.

 

[Jeff N]

But should we trust VW? Will there be oversight?

No, we should not trust VW. However, I doubt that they want to be caught violating the settlement decree.

If they are caught, the government can snitch on them to Judge Breyer who will give them a spanking.

 

[McRat]

If they sell them to India, they will probably be cleaner than the cars they replace.

 

[Jeff N]

From the settlement:

As specified in Appendices A and B, Settling Defendants may export from the United States to another country any 2.0 Liter Subject Vehicle, provided that such vehicle has received the applicable Approved Emissions Modification...

 

[adiggs]

I'm in the one wrong doesn't make another wrong, right, camp.

Worse - the possibility of a wrong, doesn't make your wrong, right.

The article makes it pretty clear that for the vast majority of the cars, the most likely outcome is crush/salvage for parts. They won't be repaired, and they won't be starting a new life elsewhere. There are newer cars where a reasonable path to repair exists. it still won't be as good as we'd like (is what I get, reading between the lines), but it also won't be so grossly out of line either.

If you're ready to face any civil or criminal penalties that might be coming your way for sabotaging / vandalizing somebody else's property, then you're back into the camp of civil disobedience. Then we can disagree over methods, but you're back on the side of the angels (and I'd expect it will at least cost you your reimbursement from VW for the vehicle).

 

[adiggs]

Of course, if you're ready to forgo the settlement money anyway to register your protest, then another path would be to take your car to a junkyard / crusher, and sell it to them for salvage / recycling value. Some place where they'll pay you the salvage money, and let you watch while they turn it into a pancake.

You can be sure it doesn't start a new life somewhere else, and get at least some of the money out of it.

 

[glhs272]

There is an extended cab midsized pickup that gets 30 mpg, or a full sized that gets 24. So the VW was getting 90mpg? Or at least 72mpg? Maybe you are thinking about import trucks. They suck fuel like there's a hole in the tank.

I sort of find that hard to believe.

They are looking at a Chevy Silverado crew cab short box (V8 4wd of course). Like 16mpg city/ 23 highway mpg typical (EPA) form what I read. They usually get 50-55mpg out of their TDI. So there ya go. (1/3*55=18.33). But YMMV.

 

[gene]

OK, you guys have collectively presented me with good arguments for leaving the engine alone, ie; no valve grinding compound. Whew! I got my good karma back!

 

[voyager]

Isn't it by American law forbidden to take in polluting VWs and resell them on export markets? Thought I'd read that somewhere.

 

[cwerdna]

Take a look at it from a big picture environmental perspective. Will crushing all these VW TDI diesels before they are worn out be an overall good thing for the environment? Will it reduce CO2 pollution? Will it reduce other pollutants, even if local?
Generally, building a car takes a lot of energy (Not sure how much, but maybe a 1/3 of lifetime emissions), so using "used" cars as long as possible is a good thing from an environmental perspective. By taking these used vehicles off the road, they will presumably have to be replaced by new vehicles. Of course replacing an old inefficient vehicle with a much more efficient new vehicle could help that equation. However, these TDI diesels really are rather efficient from a MPG (overall CO2) perspective. And sadly most cars built today are not really much better, unless perhaps they are being replaced by an electric.

CO2 is one thing, but that doesn't cause direct harm to the health of humans. One problem w/this cheater VW diesels is very high NOx output, which is harmful: http://phys.org/news/2015-09-nox-gases-diesel-car-fumes.html.

However, CO2 output for burning a given amount of diesel is higher than for gasoline, due to diesel's higher carbon content. Per Emission Facts: Average Carbon Dioxide Emissions Resulting from Gasoline and Diesel Fuel | US EPA
"CO2 emissions from a gallon of gasoline = 2,421 grams x 0.99 x (44/12) = 8,788 grams = 8.8 kg/gallon = 19.4 pounds/gallon

CO2 emissions from a gallon of diesel = 2,778 grams x 0.99 x (44/12) = 10,084 grams = 10.1 kg/gallon = 22.2 pounds/gallon"

The report linked to from Hummer versus Prius: “Dust to Dust” Report Misleads the Media and Public with Bad Science - Pacific Institute has ranges from 75 to 90% of energy consumed by a vehicle due to its operation.

And, currently and recently sold gasoline-powered vehicles are much cleaner burning from a NOx (and likely other pollutant) perspective than those cheater VW diesels.

 

[SageBrush]

My tendency is to pour a spoonful of valve grinding compound into the motor upon return. This will seize the motor up through main bearing damage fairly quickly.

Then the poor sod in Mexico who buys your car ends up with scrap metal in a few days.