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VW, still high on diesel fumes, thinks snowball EV can beat Model 3

Discussion in 'Electric Vehicles' started by SabrToothSqrl, May 9, 2017.

  1. Takumi

    Takumi Member

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    They can according to the Alternative Facts.
     
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  2. miimura

    miimura Active Member

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    It's good that they're dreaming, but Tesla is a moving target. That target moves a whole lot faster than most legacy automakers. How will VW's 2020 vehicle compare to the Model Y, also likely to be available in 2020, that will be yet another product generation beyond Model 3? I don't question VW's intentions these days, I question their competitiveness. Releasing a car in 2020 that compares well to a 2017 Model 3 is not competitive.
     
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  3. BluestarE3

    BluestarE3 Active Member

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  4. thegruf

    thegruf Active Member

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    It's not making the car that is the problem, it's making the car profitably and sustainably.
     
  5. Sparky

    Sparky Member

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    I think VW will have seen the "electric" light when the CEO shows off a new EV and declares it an A7, Q7, Golf, Jetta, etc killer.
    Heck, I'll take claims of Mercedes S-class, Lexus 400, BMW 3-series "killer".
    That's the competition. Not Tesla.
     
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  6. Discoducky

    Discoducky Active Member

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    But will they make a machine that makes a machine better and faster than Tesla? More competition is better in the end.
     
  7. DrGuest

    DrGuest Member

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    I think these "Tesla Killers" are really a competitor for the Nisson Leaf and not the Model 3. My neighbor just traded his Leaf for a Chevy Bolt for the increased mileage. I think Nisson is the one that is going to lose when other car OEM's come out with 200+ miles of charge.
     
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  8. thegruf

    thegruf Active Member

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  9. McRat

    McRat Active Member

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    Don't kid yourself. VW is flush with cash and can BUY the technology if they don't have it. And they can lose money to prove a point, like the XL1/Veyron/Chiron/918 etc.

    They have something Nissan, GM, and Ford do not have. Desirable hood ornaments. Porsche/Audi/Bugatti/Bentley/Lamborghini.

    But luckily, they probably won't. Stockholders love press releases and concept cars. They hate losing money.
     
  10. Canuck

    Canuck Well-Known Member

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    #11 Canuck, May 9, 2017
    Last edited: May 9, 2017
    It's not about the technology, in my view. It's all about a charging network to support it. You can tell VW's CEO has no idea about driving an electric vehicle when he says:

    So VW is going to rein Tesla in by giving drivers extra range with their new architecture? First, I find their claim to be BS (not that they would lie to us ;) ). It's fine to put up a graph but as Elon says -- no graphs, power points, etc. -- just send us a cell. Are we really to believe VW has that better cell when no one else does? But let's assume for the sake of argument they do, and their vehicle will go further than a Tesla. How does that help? Tesla's range is more than enough for daily commutes. So no more range needed there. But if I get in a long range VW EV to go on trip, I am going to need to use Chademo or CCS charging networks and that's scary in itself. I remember the days before Superchargers and hoping the L2 charger was not only available, but in service. Until there are banks of fast chargers supplied and maintained by VW, that extra range will not get you anywhere any faster, unless your destination is just before where the range ends, which isn't much of a trip. If VW really wants to "rein in" Tesla, they need to start building a charging network because those can't be built overnight. And if they think they can just put them at VW dealerships, they better think again. People want to stop and charge close to amenities and not in areas that are commonly surrounded by other car dealers and little else within walking distance, which is where most car dealerships are located.

    It's too bad VW's CEO doesn't even understand the basics of driving an EV because it would be great if VW really did make a EV that could compete with the Model 3. But until they get off their arse and build a charging network, they will only be building EVs that people will buy as one that is secondary to an ICE or Tesla, but not a primary vehicle, if you want to travel anywhere, as most people do.

    Ditto for the Bolt.
     
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  11. SageBrush

    SageBrush Active Member

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  12. alcibiades

    alcibiades Member

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    Or perhaps by the time VW releases this car, they'll have built a network of fast-chargers.

    Or perhaps by the time VW releases this car, a 3rd company will have built a network of fast chargers.

    Maybe the Model 3 flops and Tesla goes bankrupt, so VW gets to not worry.

    More competition is a good thing. Other than having a strong financial interest in Tesla's stock, I don't get the point in hoping others fail. I want a cleaner earth. I'll support that endeavor no matter the badge on the car.
     
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  13. ecarfan

    ecarfan Well-Known Member

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    VW execs have clearly been exposed to excess NOx for years and their frontal cortex regions have been irreparably damaged. They are announcing that 3 years from now they will make a much better car than what Tesla is making this year. As if what Tesla will be making 3 years from now will be just like what they are making now.

    It's that kind of thinking that has gotten VW into the mess they are in today.
     
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  14. Canuck

    Canuck Well-Known Member

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    What you don't get is the entire point of my post that you quoted before you said this. I said:

    I never wish failure on any EV maker. I was telling VW how to do it right in my view, having travelled in an EV before there were superchargers. It's called constructive criticism. I said practically the same thing about the Bolt in this thread:

    Tesla Master Plan: GM got there first

    Sorry but "perhaps" isn't good enough for me. I want VW's CEO to state "We are building (or plan to build) a fast charging network in addition to a long range EV."

    Of course, but I don't see another long range EV without a proper fast charging network as competition and that's where we differ. I want real competition for Tesla (actually for me - the more selection the better) - and the more people we can get in EVs the better. Can anyone here really recommend a long range EV to family/friends that is not supported by a fast charging network like the supercharger network? Not me. When discussing my car with newbies, the supercharger network is always at the forefront of that conversation.
     
  15. Jeff N

    Jeff N Active Member

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    VW is already doing that. They have published plans under a court settlement, approved by EPA for 49 states and pending approval by CARB in California, to build-out a Supercharger-like DC highway network at about the same scope and pace as Tesla's first 2-3 years of build-out.

    Those VW charging locations cannot be located at or near VW dealers under the terms that legal settlement.

    VW Reveals Nationwide EV Charging Plans - HybridCars.com
     
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  16. Bangor Bob

    Bangor Bob Member

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    The other thing they're working on, and have been very quiet about since 2015, is solid-state batteries. Where are they on those? Nobody who knows is saying. Maybe they think they'll have them by 2020.

    I do wish people would stop giving air to their interminable EV press releases though. I'd really rather just ignore them until they actually start retooling a factory to produce compelling EVs in quantity.
     
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  17. SageBrush

    SageBrush Active Member

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    400 - 600 km per charge on the NEDC cycle is ~ 180 - 240 miles by EPA testing. Sounds to me like a good target for battery ranges. As for VW -- make me up when they have finalized car specs and prices, and a national fast charging network is available for use.
     
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  18. ecarfan

    ecarfan Well-Known Member

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    I such a DC charging network is operational and usable by 2020 I will be shocked.

    Believe me, I want VW to build such a network and I want them to offer a real competitive BEV in 2020. I just don't think they can do it that fast. And I think that every single ICE company is hobbled by their dealer network and by their need to keep their ICE revenue flowing. It is going to be exceedingly painful for them to make BEVs that are better than their ICE models. They could do that if they wanted to. But they really don't want to.

    What Tesla has done is make a fundamentally better car than their ICE competitors in the market niches they currently compete in: high end sedans and SUVs. Tesla is about to do the same with the Model 3 in the mid-price sedan market. Then Tesla will do the same thing in the mid-price CUV/SUV market. And so on.

    But the ICE companies do not want to build a BEV that is better than their current ICE models because it will cost them a massive amount to invest in the necessary R&D and factories and then they will negatively impact their existing model sales. So far what they have done instead is make a weirdmobile BEV like the i3, which has been a sales failure, or make a generic looking and relatively expensive BEV like the Bolt, which unfortunately does not look like it is on track to be a success. The Volt is a modest success but no other company seems to think that is a concept worth emulating.
     
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  19. Topher

    Topher Energy Curmudgeon

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    That doesn't really help. GM bought the technology in the Bolt from LG, but that doesn't make it a compelling electric car. It is about design, more than just technology. Where is the frunk in a Bolt? It's not there. Why not? Design. And it wouldn't make GM a leader in electric cars, if hugely successful, it would make LG a leader in electric cars.

    Thank you kindly.
     

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