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WA Supercharging now $0.25/kWh

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That rate is definitely less competitive than a hybrid. Assume 30 MPG overall hybrid (easily achievable for HW/city mix), that's $.10 per mile. @ $.25/kWh and my overall 500 Wh/mile HW/city mix, that means $.125 per mile, which is more expensive, potentially even when you figure in things like oil changes. Maintenance otherwise for a Prius is far less than for a Tesla (my 2008 Prius has simply had nothing done except headlights, which were obscenely expensive). Anybody who doesn't charge at home most of the time ($.11/kWh for me in Seattle, plus I have solar that offsets a little) would be hurting (and anybody doing roadtrips with all SC).

You really average 500 W/mile? That is pretty high, even for a MX is it not?
 
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That rate is definitely less competitive than a hybrid. Assume 30 MPG overall hybrid (easily achievable for HW/city mix), that's $.10 per mile. @ $.25/kWh and my overall 500 Wh/mile HW/city mix, that means $.125 per mile, which is more expensive, potentially even when you figure in things like oil changes. Maintenance otherwise for a Prius is far less than for a Tesla (my 2008 Prius has simply had nothing done except headlights, which were obscenely expensive). Anybody who doesn't charge at home most of the time ($.11/kWh for me in Seattle, plus I have solar that offsets a little) would be hurting (and anybody doing roadtrips with all SC).

After my first 6500 miles I calculated my cost per mile @ just over 2.55 cents per mile

Averaged 307 Watts/mile over my first 6,531 miles in ~5 months
My total energy cost is 8.4 cents per kilowatt including fees/taxes
to charge at my home in SW Washington
@2.5536 cents per mile
$168.42 for first 6,531 miles
 
After my first 6500 miles I calculated my cost per mile @ just over 2.55 cents per mile

Averaged 307 Watts/mile over my first 6,531 miles in ~5 months
My total energy cost is 8.4 cents per kilowatt including fees/taxes
to charge at my home in SW Washington
@2.5536 cents per mile
$168.42 for first 6,531 miles

I guess you live somewhere warm, flat, and not urban. :) My city and highway mix in Seattle area for the last 2500 miles with hills and constant stop and go is a bit less than 500 Wh/m (I rounded up for convenience). That's $.04-.05 per mile when I charge at home (before whatever benefit I get from solar, which is hard for me to calculate), but would be 2.5x that much @ the new SC rates (which would be more than my prius around here, which averages 30 MPG). My comment was about the SC rates, not home charging, which is still a bargain here.

In summer, I can do better than 300 Wh/m on highway roadtrips, so that could be ~$.07/mile with WA SCs, which is still worse than a prius that gets 44 MPG on the highway ($.055/mile). For home-charge day trips, I would get ~$.03, which is good. New priuses are much better than my 30/44 MPG.

Bottom line is that $.25/kWh is pretty bad and crazy for WA state.
 
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For today that is true, no reason they won't raise them again in a year.
That’s true. I get why M3 owners are upset. One of the main attractions of the S was free supercharging. Matter of fact when I found out that it does not get gradfathered into the car but only stays with the first owner now, I almost cancelled my order.
 
There's really only two things that upset me about this. First, they should have had enough information to set costs appropriately when they first announced paid supercharging. If these numbers were the first rates they ever published, I don't see people complaining. Starting them really low and then more than doubling them after a year or so is more of a cable provider tactic, and people really hate their cable providers.

Second, this doesn't appear to be at all related to recovering operating costs on a state by state basis. Rather, it seems they looked at gas prices for each state, and tried to make theirs a little cheaper. So the PNW gets the shortest end of the stick, with our cheap electricity and expensive gas. That's pretty bad, but the part that really gets me is that our electricity is so cheap because we have lots and lots of clean, renewable energy. Our gas is expensive in large part due to stricter environmental standards. So essentially, we're getting charged at the highest premiums over costs explicitly because our states are doing the right thing.
 
That rate is definitely less competitive than a hybrid. Assume 30 MPG overall hybrid (easily achievable for HW/city mix), that's $.10 per mile. @ $.25/kWh and my overall 500 Wh/mile HW/city mix, that means $.125 per mile, which is more expensive, potentially even when you figure in things like oil changes. Maintenance otherwise for a Prius is far less than for a Tesla (my 2008 Prius has simply had nothing done except headlights, which were obscenely expensive). Anybody who doesn't charge at home most of the time ($.11/kWh for me in Seattle, plus I have solar that offsets a little) would be hurting (and anybody doing roadtrips with all SC).

I'm used to thinking 4 cents per mile in my Prius and 2 cents per mile in my Leaf. I pay ~$0.10/kWh at home and gas here is ~$2.10, like just above $2 most of the time.

A Model 3 or S would come in below 4 cents per mile on the electricity if charged at my house. I can't imagine paying the demand surcharge. Anybody concerned with cost will charge at home as much as possible.

I'd have to assume people will charge enough at home to offset the minimal supercharger use they absolutely require.

If you save 1c per mile charging at home and pay an extra 5c per mile at a supercharger you need to charge at home 83% of the time to break even vs a good hybrid, even less vs the mediocre hybrids.

If you are the type that only uses supercharging for long trips you'll come out ahead with Tesla vs a Hybrid (ignoring purchase costs, just based on cost to charge).
 
That rate is definitely less competitive than a hybrid. Assume 30 MPG overall hybrid (easily achievable for HW/city mix), that's $.10 per mile. @ $.25/kWh and my overall 500 Wh/mile HW/city mix, that means $.125 per mile, which is more expensive, potentially even when you figure in things like oil changes. Maintenance otherwise for a Prius is far less than for a Tesla (my 2008 Prius has simply had nothing done except headlights, which were obscenely expensive). Anybody who doesn't charge at home most of the time ($.11/kWh for me in Seattle, plus I have solar that offsets a little) would be hurting (and anybody doing roadtrips with all SC).
Just curious why a Prius owner would mention 30 mpg for a hybrid sedan? My hybrid Civic never went lower than mid-40s and I would think your Prius would do even better? Of course my numbers make your argument even more compelling.

Personally, I have no need for urban, daily Supercharging as I have a garage. I also do most long distance travel by air so I personally will benefit from rates high enough to chase off the local cheapskates on those rare occasions when I need Supercharging for long distance travel. But I do wonder if putting the squeeze on urban dwellers without home charging sites may be a bad idea for future sales. Perhaps urban chargers should have lower rates than regular Superchargers when charging at comparable speeds. (I do understand urban chargers have slower max charging speeds.)
 
If you live near the West Coast Electric Highway (Aerovironment, evolutions.com) stations, you can do one-time DC fast charge session (Chademo) for $7.50 (so if you pull 75 kWh it is 10 cents kW/h) or subscribe for unlimited use at $19.99 per month. Yes, you need a Chademo adapter. I've used this service driving through WA...
 
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There's really only two things that upset me about this. First, they should have had enough information to set costs appropriately when they first announced paid supercharging. If these numbers were the first rates they ever published, I don't see people complaining. Starting them really low and then more than doubling them after a year or so is more of a cable provider tactic, and people really hate their cable providers.

Second, this doesn't appear to be at all related to recovering operating costs on a state by state basis. Rather, it seems they looked at gas prices for each state, and tried to make theirs a little cheaper. So the PNW gets the shortest end of the stick, with our cheap electricity and expensive gas. That's pretty bad, but the part that really gets me is that our electricity is so cheap because we have lots and lots of clean, renewable energy. Our gas is expensive in large part due to stricter environmental standards. So essentially, we're getting charged at the highest premiums over costs explicitly because our states are doing the right thing.
So, it sounds like you did some research. Did you research what the COMMERCIAL rates are in WA? Or are you just assuming that all electrical rates are low?

And base gasoline prices are NOT much higher or lower in most places, the difference is in the amount of tax that is added in by the state.

I think your assertion that Tesla is gouging based on gasoline prices is suspect. Show us that the state average commercial electricity rates are not proportional to the Tesla rate, and I'll be surprised. Are they charging more than the commercial rate? Maybe. But I doubt it is not the same up-charge everywhere.
 
Electricity prices at Superchargers are not the same as electricity at home. More than 400 dedicated charging stations that deliver 120 kW of power anywhere you go is a huge deal. In fact is the reason I would not buy any other EV at the moment. Without the Supercharging network an EV would just not work for me. Having 120 kW of power available in so many places is a convenience that also needs to be accounted for. That's why I don't think it's fair to compare rates at Superchargers with rates at home. It's apples and oranges. What's confusing to me is that Tesla is increasing the energy rates while the promise to sell electricity for their semis for 7 ct per kWh.
 
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Just curious why a Prius owner would mention 30 mpg for a hybrid sedan? My hybrid Civic never went lower than mid-40s and I would think your Prius would do even better? Of course my numbers make your argument even more compelling.

Personally, I have no need for urban, daily Supercharging as I have a garage. I also do most long distance travel by air so I personally will benefit from rates high enough to chase off the local cheapskates on those rare occasions when I need Supercharging for long distance travel. But I do wonder if putting the squeeze on urban dwellers without home charging sites may be a bad idea for future sales. Perhaps urban chargers should have lower rates than regular Superchargers when charging at comparable speeds. (I do understand urban chargers have slower max charging speeds.)

I think I mentioned earlier that I was using conservative numbers for my 2008 Prius (30/44). New priuses are much better, and the case is even more compelling. There are also very nice hybrid basic and luxury sedans that can beat 30/44.

I'd like to hear some explanation for why they charge $.26 in southern CA and $.25 in WA. Perhaps it is because they are sourcing more electricity from solar in southern CA, so their margins are comparable. Perhaps PNW electric utilities screw over commercial customers more than in southern CA (relative to home customers). But it sure looks BAD in WA and OR to make this sudden massive price increase!
 
We paid $2K to have our Model S 60 Supercharged enabled. $0.25 per kW seems like a steal of a deal to me. At that rate it would likely take us 10-15 years to pay off the $2K.

Most of our Supercharge stops add between 20-30 kW, just enough to get us home or to a free destination charger.

Rates a Blink and EVgo are higher than Tesla.

This seems like it would only impact people who can't charge at home and live near a Supercharger.
 
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Washington electric suppliers are required to have a certain percentage as renewal energy. Hydro was NOT classified as renewable, so they have to invest in solar (we hardly ever have clouds here), wind (very expensive start up costs), and other types. So, there is going to be an increase in our power to pay for this new power sources. There was a push underway in the legislature to include "green" power which would include Hydro and thus reduce the need for further investments, and to lower our rates.
 
I asked our Vancouver public power utility what rate schedule the Vancouver supercharger was on and what the rules were on re-selling power. Here is their reply:

"Thank you for contacting us regarding the Tesla EV chargers located at the Salmon Creek Fred Meyer. Those chargers are owned by Tesla and only available to Tesla owners. The electricity is sold to Fred Meyer on the standard large commercial schedule/rate and then resold to Tesla from Fred Meyer; there is no contract with either organization. Private corporations can resell public power if that power is consumed within the public utility service territory, therefore, we do not need a contract. Keep in mind they pay a hefty “demand charge” that you avoid when charging at your residence; we do not have a demand charge for residential accounts.

I’d be happy to talk more about this if you would like; feel free to give me a ring anytime. I always encourage customer to charge their EV’s at home so they can pay the retail rates and avoid the margin that the owner of the private chargers make."

I was surprised that they did not connect directly to the utility but are sub-metered off of Freddies account . Seems like a complication for Freddies billing. Freddies re-sells it to Tesla at a profit? Maybe it varies from state to state, but I thought an apartment owner could not re-sell power to the renters. They had to have individual accounts or it was not metered and the rent took care of it.
 
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More info from the utility:

Tesla was not required to do any sub metering by the PUD; unfortunately I do not have insight into the agreement between Fred Meyer and Tesla. I do know one of those two organizations was required to pay for the infrastructure upgrades in order to provide enough electricity for the fast chargers.

· Commercial and Industrial rates have a lower kWh charge than residential, that is true.

o Residential Rate $0.0816 per kWh

o C&I Rate $0.077 to $0.0438 per kWh (depending on load size, time of year, et al)

o C&I Demand Rate $5.94 to $6.77 per kW (depending on point of delivery)

o https://www.clarkpublicutilities.com/about-cpu/public-documents/current-electric-water-rates/

· Yes, we have power factor charges for large commercial and industrial customers.

· AC-to-DC conversion does play a factor in power factors and generally makes it worse off.

· Commercial and industrial accounts have several rate schedules depending on their load profile.


I just spoke with our attorney again and he explained we evaluate these situations on a case-by-case basis and because the state of Washington has a general policy of encouraging the adoption of EV’s we’ve chosen to not create a policy around the chargers.
 
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More info from the utility:

Tesla was not required to do any sub metering by the PUD; unfortunately I do not have insight into the agreement between Fred Meyer and Tesla. I do know one of those two organizations was required to pay for the infrastructure upgrades in order to provide enough electricity for the fast chargers.

· Commercial and Industrial rates have a lower kWh charge than residential, that is true.

o Residential Rate $0.0816 per kWh

o C&I Rate $0.077 to $0.0438 per kWh (depending on load size, time of year, et al)

o C&I Demand Rate $5.94 to $6.77 per kW (depending on point of delivery)

o https://www.clarkpublicutilities.com/about-cpu/public-documents/current-electric-water-rates/

· Yes, we have power factor charges for large commercial and industrial customers.

· AC-to-DC conversion does play a factor in power factors and generally makes it worse off.

· Commercial and industrial accounts have several rate schedules depending on their load profile.


I just spoke with our attorney again and he explained we evaluate these situations on a case-by-case basis and because the state of Washington has a general policy of encouraging the adoption of EV’s we’ve chosen to not create a policy around the chargers.
often landlords with centers like FM has, will submeter each tenant and include their utility cost in their rent. So having it set up thru Fred Meyer doesn't surprise me.

on the Demand Rate, which I've seen some others suggest is why the rate is 3x the residential rate, I understand the demand rates are used for service that is rarely used. IE if you had an outbuilding that had some equipment that is only used a few times a year, instead of having continual service with a minimum monthly fee, you could have no minimum monthly fee but a significantly higher per kWh rate when power is needed.
I could be wrong, so someone correct if that is not accurate.
 
on the Demand Rate, which I've seen some others suggest is why the rate is 3x the residential rate, I understand the demand rates are used for service that is rarely used. IE if you had an outbuilding that had some equipment that is only used a few times a year, instead of having continual service with a minimum monthly fee, you could have no minimum monthly fee but a significantly higher per kWh rate when power is needed.
I could be wrong, so someone correct if that is not accurate.

That is incorrect. You pay the same per kWh, but if you have higher than "normal" loads you pay a monthly charge based on the maximum kWs draw that you had that month. (It is to cover the costs of the extra infrastructure necessary to support the heavy loads, even if only for a few minutes a month.)

So if the only activity you have in a given month is a single car charging at a peak of 120kW and it used 60 kWh of energy to charge the battery your bill, using the averages of what was posted above, would be $3.62 for the energy used and $762.60 for the demand charges. So that single car cost $766.22 for its charge or $12.77/kWh. Now if you had 10 cars a day charge, all one at a time, in a 31 day month you would pay $1,122.20 for energy usage and the same $762.60 for the demand charges. So each car only cost $6.08 to charge, or $0.10/kWh. (Since the demand charges are spread out on the 310 cars that charged in that month.) (If you have the same 310 cars charge, but now you have two charging, at hitting peak at the same time, your demand charges double. The total cost would be $2,647.4 or $8.54/car and $0.14/kWh.)

So obviously you want/need to use lots of energy or the demand charges kill you.

Note: The above examples exclude all other fees/charges to make it simple.