Wall Charger Installation $$$$ - need help choosing the scope of work

[claypot2]

So it appears the installation is going to cost me a lot more than I expected. I bought the wall charger shortly after buying my Model 3 (midrange battery) at the end of December. I called almost all the Tesla recommended electricians for my area. First one on the list didn't want to the hassle permitting. I want permits. Second guy said he could do it from the existing panel and offered this ($):

• Furnish and install conduit, wiring, circuit breaker to serve your new Tesla Wall Connector
• Furnish and install 2-#6 & 1-#10 THHN in conduit from circuit breaker to charger
• Install all properly spaced supports on conduit per NEC
• Install one new 2 pole , 240v, 60 Amp Circuit breaker to serve circuit
• Make final connections in Electric panel and provide proper grounding
• Install a new Tesla Wall Connector (owner supplied)
• Test, Identify and label circuit breaker

Second company offered ($$):
Remove (1) 150-amp interior panel ; Wire, Supply, & Install (1) 150-amp, 120/240-volt single phast MCB panel ; Breakers as required ; Tesla Wall Connector - Wire, Supply, & Install (1) 60-amp, 2-pole breaker ; (20’) Allowance conduit and wire for 60-amp circuit ; Wire & Install (1) Tesla wall connector (provided by customer)

Third company was double the price of the second company and offered ($$$$):
Replace existing 150amp electrical panel with new 150amp MCB panel including new breakers. Run a dedicated
60amp circuit from panel to customer supplied Tesla wall charger and a dedicated 50amp circuit to a NEMA 14-50
outlet. Tesla wall charger to be installed in garage on the right when facing out on the side wall and NEMA 14-50
outlet will be installed outside on wall on same side. Circuits will be ran in conduit and mounted on surface or wall/ceiling.
Including: Permit, inspection, labor and materials to complete job as described above.

Fourth company said ($$): the best and most cost effective solution would be to upgrade the [outside] meter to a 200 amp meter combo providing an extra layer of protection to the existing electrical panel in the garage. From the meter combo we have available space for the Tesla wall connector and their proposal was initially: PROVIDE AND INSTALL NEW METER COMBO 200 AMPS SQUARE "D"; PROVIDE AND INSTALL NEW OVER CURRENT PROTECTION DEVICE FOR
TESLA WALL CONNECTOR; INSTALL NEW TESLA WALL CONNECTOR (TESLA WALL CONNECTOR PROVIDED BY OWNER); PROVIDE AND INSTALL NEW GROUNDING ELECTRODE ACCORDING TO NATIONAL ELECTRICAL CODE.
He said I have no free room in my current panel for the Tesla charger.

Fourth company also offered the route of changing out the panel with this proposal ($$$$): PROVIDE AND INSTALL NEW METER COMBO 200 AMPS SQUARE "D"; PROVIDE AND INSTALL NEW GROUNDING ELECTRODE ACCORDING TO NATIONAL ELECTRICAL CODE; PROVIDE AND INSTALL NEW ELECTRICAL PANEL SINGLE PHASE 120/240 VOLT 60 HZ 42 SPACES; PROVIDE AND INSTALL ALL NEW CIRCUIT BREAKERS ACCORDING TO EXISTING LOADS BRAND SQUARE D; PROVIDE POWER FOR NEW TESLA WALL CONNECTOR (TESLA WALL PROVIDE BY OWNER AND INSTALL BY US); REPLACE EXISTING ALUMINUM FEEDERS FOR COOPERS FROM NEW METER; COMBO TO NEW PANEL USING EXISTING CONDUIT TO PROVIDE 200 AMPS

The 4th guy didnt think I have enough amperage coming into the house to run a Tesla charger off the existing panel. The first two companies didn't mention this. My existing panel is I think a split 120 amp panel (60 on each side) - they said it is outdated and needs to be changed but didnt mention there was a problem with available power. I liked the last guys offer best he himself isn't a licensed electrician. He is the President of the company that is licensed by the state of Florida, but he personally doesn't have a license (I looked him up) - is this a problem?

 

[eprosenx]

So it appears the installation is going to cost me a lot more than I expected. I bought the wall charger shortly after buying my Model 3 (midrange battery) at the end of December. I called almost all the Tesla recommended electricians for my area. First one on the list didn't want to the hassle permitting. I want permits. Second guy said he could do it from the existing panel and offered this ($):

• Furnish and install conduit, wiring, circuit breaker to serve your new Tesla Wall Connector
• Furnish and install 2-#6 & 1-#10 THHN in conduit from circuit breaker to charger
• Install all properly spaced supports on conduit per NEC
• Install one new 2 pole , 240v, 60 Amp Circuit breaker to serve circuit
• Make final connections in Electric panel and provide proper grounding
• Install a new Tesla Wall Connector (owner supplied)
• Test, Identify and label circuit breaker

Second company offered ($$):
Remove (1) 150-amp interior panel ; Wire, Supply, & Install (1) 150-amp, 120/240-volt single phast MCB panel ; Breakers as required ; Tesla Wall Connector - Wire, Supply, & Install (1) 60-amp, 2-pole breaker ; (20’) Allowance conduit and wire for 60-amp circuit ; Wire & Install (1) Tesla wall connector (provided by customer)

Third company was double the price of the second company and offered ($$$$):
Replace existing 150amp electrical panel with new 150amp MCB panel including new breakers. Run a dedicated
60amp circuit from panel to customer supplied Tesla wall charger and a dedicated 50amp circuit to a NEMA 14-50
outlet. Tesla wall charger to be installed in garage on the right when facing out on the side wall and NEMA 14-50
outlet will be installed outside on wall on same side. Circuits will be ran in conduit and mounted on surface or wall/ceiling.
Including: Permit, inspection, labor and materials to complete job as described above.

Fourth company said ($$): the best and most cost effective solution would be to upgrade the [outside] meter to a 200 amp meter combo providing an extra layer of protection to the existing electrical panel in the garage. From the meter combo we have available space for the Tesla wall connector and their proposal was initially: PROVIDE AND INSTALL NEW METER COMBO 200 AMPS SQUARE "D"; PROVIDE AND INSTALL NEW OVER CURRENT PROTECTION DEVICE FOR
TESLA WALL CONNECTOR; INSTALL NEW TESLA WALL CONNECTOR (TESLA WALL CONNECTOR PROVIDED BY OWNER); PROVIDE AND INSTALL NEW GROUNDING ELECTRODE ACCORDING TO NATIONAL ELECTRICAL CODE.
He said I have no free room in my current panel for the Tesla charger.

Fourth company also offered the route of changing out the panel with this proposal ($$$$): PROVIDE AND INSTALL NEW METER COMBO 200 AMPS SQUARE "D"; PROVIDE AND INSTALL NEW GROUNDING ELECTRODE ACCORDING TO NATIONAL ELECTRICAL CODE; PROVIDE AND INSTALL NEW ELECTRICAL PANEL SINGLE PHASE 120/240 VOLT 60 HZ 42 SPACES; PROVIDE AND INSTALL ALL NEW CIRCUIT BREAKERS ACCORDING TO EXISTING LOADS BRAND SQUARE D; PROVIDE POWER FOR NEW TESLA WALL CONNECTOR (TESLA WALL PROVIDE BY OWNER AND INSTALL BY US); REPLACE EXISTING ALUMINUM FEEDERS FOR COOPERS FROM NEW METER; COMBO TO NEW PANEL USING EXISTING CONDUIT TO PROVIDE 200 AMPS

The 4th guy didnt think I have enough amperage coming into the house to run a Tesla charger off the existing panel. The first two companies didn't mention this. My existing panel is I think a split 120 amp panel (60 on each side) - they said it is outdated and needs to be changed but didnt mention there was a problem with available power. I liked the last guys offer best he himself isn't a licensed electrician. He is the President of the company that is licensed by the state of Florida, but he personally doesn't have a license (I looked him up) - is this a problem?

Wow! Lots of options. I fully understand how you end up with so many possible solutions. The NEC load calculations are a royal pain in the butt and they seem to leave a lot of ambiguity. I could see any one of these solutions being viable.

Before I could comment on which to go with, can you take a whole bunch of pictures and post then?

The following would be helpful:

• Pictures of your outside meter so we can read the specs on it.
• Pictures of the wire or conduit feeding that outside meter (trying to suss out what size service you may have and how difficult installing a new one might be)
• Picture of your inside circuit breaker door panel with any text legible (so we can figure out if a new breaker can be fit in there) - one of the things I will be checking for here is to make sure your existing panel is not known to be one that is a safety hazard
• Picture of the "service schedule" that lists what the different breakers are for
• Picture of the breaker handles of sufficient resolution so we can read their amperages
• If you can do this safely and comfortably - pictures of the panel with the cover removed
• Pictures of the area you want the Tesla Wall Connector installed in and anything that gives perspective on the path back to the main panel or to the outside location where the meter is.

Note that since you bought the mid-range Model 3 your max charging speed is 32 amps which only requires a 40a circuit. Now I likely might still install a larger circuit (50a or 60a depending on the solution), but if panel rated capacity is limited you might consider a smaller circuit to avoid needing to upgrade the main electrical service (though note that if your panel is really old I would likely advise replacing it regardless).

Did you ask for a Wall Connector inside and 14-50 outside? I personally did the reverse since my M3 (sadly) normally sits outside. This allows me to charge in the garage as well and gives me a backup to the Wall Connector. ;-) I would say though that this is very optional. I have had zero issues with my Wall Connector. If doing a new panel and it has the capacity and your receptacle is very close to the panel then adding a 14-50 can be stupid cheap.

P.S. I would say all of those scopes of work are actually pretty decently written. They may all be viable and code compliant, or actually, depending on the situation, none of them may be code compliant. ;-) Companies 1-3 may be overloading the existing panel or a 150a main service depending on existing loads in your house. Company 4 has some good ideas with upgrading to a 200a service, but one of their options would require un-bonding the neutral and ground a the existing panel most likely and making sure that there is a separate neutral and ground wire in the conduit between them. All doable, but it is easy to get wrong. ;-)

 

[dethman]

For a midrange you should just have someone install a permitted nema 14-50 which should only be about 400 bucks. You can only charge at 32A anyway. Almost any panel should be able to handle an extra 14-50 especially if charging at night time.

All the others seem like overkill. Why not list the prices btw?

 

[COrocket]

Unless you plan on aquiring multiple EVs in the future, I wouldn’t go through the expense or hastle of upgrading your main panel. How many miles per day on average do you drive? Reason I ask is - most owners could install a much smaller circuit and have the same capability as hooking up to a 60A circuit (which is quite a lot of power for a 120A main panel), for a much lower install cost.

For example, even if you installed your Wall Connector on a 20A circuit, and charged 10 hrs a night, it would add up to 160 miles of range to replenish your daily driving. Put another way, that’s a little over 58,000 miles per year.

 

[claypot2]

Hi thanks for the replies. Here are the pictures. I can get better ones if you need them. Couldn't take the panel off myself but can get it done if you still need it. Electricians seemed to concur I have an old Split Panel. The power meter is located on the left side of my house and my garage where the panel exists is on the right side of my house (maybe 40-50 feet away). The panel is on back wall of the garage and I wanted to put the tesla charger on the left inside wall of the garage near the garage door. I know it looks like we'll never get a car in there but we are in the process of cleaning up the garage to make space for the car. My original plan was to also include plug outside the house because I too think my car is going to end up outside quite a bit but the last guy tried to discourage me from doing it, said it wasn't necessary and that its basically a live wire when the cord is plugged in while the tesla wall charger is only live when its plugged into the car.

 

[Trevor B]

What are the actual $ amounts?

 

[claypot2]

Driving distances for me are as follows: 1-2 days a week I need to be able to go about 130-150 miles. Two time a week I go about 70 miles roundtrip, and other days about 30 miles round trip. Some days I need a little extra if I'm making other stops on any of these days. Price wise - the no permit guy said $700 to install the Tesla wall charger. ($$$$) was 4550 for what appeared to be a new panel and installation of the wall charger and a NeMa 14 50 outlet. Another quote was ($) was 1250 for the tesla wall charger and a dedicated circuit breaker. Another quote was ($$) to remove panel and install a new one and the tesla wall charger 2600. And last company first quote was for upgrading the house to 200 amp service and running a circuit from the meter to the garage and installing the tesla wall charger 2600; then his second quote which increased house to 200 am service, replaced the panel and installed the tesla wall charger from the panel 4100.Also not my current panel at this time doesn't support a clothes dryer or a water heater - both of those are gas. If I ever want to change over from gas to electric I might have a problem with my current panel.

 

[jjrandorin]

@claypot2

As far as range goes, not sure if you are aware but you will likely not get your stated range (any more than you would get the stated MPG on a gas car), unless you drive in a very specific, deliberate manner, and have no hills in your commute, and its not cold, etc.

That 70 mile each way trip (140 round trip miles) could "cost" you anywhere from the 140 to more than 200 "miles" as it relates to how much energy it consumes to make that trip.

My advice on this is the same I give to people buying computers and its this "Buy the best you can afford, not what you think you need to accomplish the job. No one ever says ""wow, my computer is too fast!" or "man, I wish my car got less range!" but the reverse is ABSOLUTELY true (wow I wish my computer were faster... wow I wish I had bought the car with more range)."

you dont start the car with 100% charge, tesla recommends only charging to 100 when you need to "take a trip". So you generally start with 90% charge. You dont drive to zero, you normally drive to 20-30%. Not trying to create FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt) at all, just advise you of the actual usable range.

On My Model 3 performance (different because of the high performance 20 inch tires), my daily commute to work is 70 miles round trip. This takes me approximately 100 "rated" miles of range. I start at 279 every day on a 90% charge, and get home with 170-190 depending on if I use the heater, etc. This means I could theoretically go 2 days without charging... but if you look at my actual commute of 70 miles round trip, and the rated miles of the car of 310 you would think I could go 4 days round trip.. but I cant.

This doesnt bother me because I expected it... it bothers others a lot. I would buy a long range model myself, unless my commute was only "in town".

Others may feel differently, and by your location it looks like you are in florida so you may not get too much "cold" weather, but I have no idea where your driving takes you.

 

[T.Antony]

I did a pretty thorough write up in the installation which is very similar to your setup except I just went for the outlet instead of the wall connector. I can’t find the link to that post right now, but here’s the link to the video. Use it for inspiration in case you want to take on the job yourself or maybe just to compare what is involved with the quotes you’re getting. For me, parts cost about a hundred bucks, maybe a fraction more. Good luck man!

 

[SSonnentag]

I like the way the 4th company thinks. Don't cut yourself short on power. The $$ looks good too.

 

[Rocky_H]

Note that since you bought the mid-range Model 3 your max charging speed is 32 amps which only requires a 40a circuit.

This. Anything over a 40A circuit can't give you any faster charging for that car at all, so is a waste of money.

 

[SSonnentag]

This. Anything over a 40A circuit can't give you any faster charging for that car at all, so is a waste of money.

Future-proofing/planning ahead is not a waste of money. The difference in cost is negligible.

 

[Rocky_H]

Future-proofing/planning ahead is not a waste of money.

It depends on how much extra that costs.

The difference in cost is negligible.

That is flat-out false. The very point of this thread is that many of the estimates are having to include replacing entire panels and upgrading the main service to the entire house, which is adding up to extra thousands of dollars because of thinking the default must be a 60A+ circuit. In some cases, for some people's houses, they may have so much spare capacity in their house's system, that maybe they can add a bit of future-proofing for some small marginal cost increase, but definitely not here.

 

[SSonnentag]

It depends on how much extra that costs.

That is flat-out false. The very point of this thread is that many of the estimates are having to include replacing entire panels and upgrading the main service to the entire house, which is adding up to extra thousands of dollars because of thinking the default must be a 60A+ circuit. In some cases, for some people's houses, they may have so much spare capacity in their house's system, that maybe they can add a bit of future-proofing for some small marginal cost increase, but definitely not here.

The OP clearly stated that the 4th solution, the best one in my opinion, was also among the cheapest ($$).

 

[ivan801]

My driving needs are similar to OP's, and I've been charging on 20A 240V for a couple of months. I don't even plug it in every night, usually about every 2-3 days.

As for future proofing, my electrician pointed out to me that this is the 3rd time I've called him (started with one LEAF, then added Fusion plug-in, then added another LEAF when Fusion got totaled, now added Model 3). My initial cost for 50 A RV plug (NEMA 14-50) was $500. Then about $200 to convert 120V 20A line (originally intended for central vac system) to a 240V 20 A line. Now about another $200 to hook up Tesla wall connector on the existing 20 A line (ended up doing myself, all the wiring was already there, took me about 1 hour). Keep in mind that if permits are required in your area the cost will be extra to what I listed.

So will all the cars over the past 8 years I am into it about $800 + cost of chargers. Just for comparison, cost to pull additional wire from the demarcation area to wall charger to provide 60A is around $3,000. No thanks, 20A meets my needs just fine.

 

[gilscales]

I have my HPWC connected to a 50A breaker because I came off of a sub panel and not the main, I set my HPWC to 32A charge and its really plenty for me, not once in over 18k miles did I wish for more, with the MR you could probably get by with a 30A circuit charging at 24A, you could then just come off of the panel in the garage by replacing 2 single pole 20a breakers with a quad style

QO20303020 Square D - New Circuit Breaker

to save you a LOT of money, you will charge at 20 miles of range per hours so in 10 hours of charging you will recoup everything you need.

Parts are probably about $200 to $250 for this option.

 

[brkaus]

I'd be curious what they would charge for a 20a/240v outlet and buy the adapter from Tesla.

The option of replacing the meter base with a meter base with breaker panel and make the current panel a sub-panel is the most flexible.

I'm not seeing your current main breaker?

When was the house built? I think the panel looks like the one at my parents house built around 1972.

 

[gilscales]

I'm not seeing your current main breaker?

Looks like an old split bus style panel fed by 2 x 2 pole 60a breakers as mains like in this first photo of the article on the link below. without seeing the inside of the OP's panel that is my best guess.

A walk in time with Walker Electric Load Centers and more. Wenatchee Home Inspection | NCW Home Inspections, LLC

 

[brkaus]

@gilscales interesting. Thank you. That would make the top 6 double pole breakers the disconnects for the house?

 

[gilscales]

@gilscales interesting. Thank you. That would make the top 6 double pole breakers the disconnects for the house?

No, the 3rd breaker down from top is a 60A on both sides, these are marked Main on the panel, one 60a 2 pole heats up half the panel while the other 60a 2 pole heats up the other half, look closely at the picture in the link and you will see how it works, however, in the OP's instance with all the heavy loads on the top half I am not sure his works the same way as it would not be able to support the loads in that configuration so....?