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WARNING: I rear-ended someone today while using Auto Pilot in my brand new P90D!
- Thread starter sandstruck
- Start date
jeffro01
Active Member
It's called proper forum etiquette, reposting your issue in multiple threads is frowned upon.
Jeff
McHoffa
CyberOwners
I think it's still his responsibility, but it seems like you either trust the car to stop for you, or you don't even the the braking system at all. What's the point of using it if it's not supposed to work? If you have the car set to 2 car lengths, it should (and from everything I've watched and read, it usually does) keep the car at 2 car lengths at all times, slowing down or speeding up. If that system suddenly doesn't work, then there was a failure in that system of some kind. Legally the drive is at fault, but technically the car didn't do its job that it was designed to do.
In true bumper to bumper in CA, I've had to use 2, but once the traffic gets going, I back off to 4. At speed, 2 is too dangerous, IMHO.
Btw, on the 7.1 conference call, Elon did say that the only cases he knew of minor AP accidents (like this one) was when people thought AP was on, but it wasn't, and he said it with an amused voice. Ha, ha. But it isn't funny at all. That happened to me once, I was using AP, and must have corrected it a bit too much on a turn, so AP turned off. When AP turns off due to steering wheel torque, the signal is very subtle, a low volume sound. It is EASY to miss it especially when you've just grabbed the wheel and are focused on not crashing. Well, I hadn't realized AP was off, so I continued driving down the freeway, hands off the wheel (but close by), and I idly looked down at the AP indicator and noticed it was grey, not blue (again, a pretty subtle difference). Geez, I had been 'driving' for god knows how long on the freeway with no one steering. Great.
So, Elon, it isn't funny, and it is easy for people to not realize AP isn't on, especially when the car turns off AP and doesn't give very big indications it has done so.
Btw, on the 7.1 conference call, Elon did say that the only cases he knew of minor AP accidents (like this one) was when people thought AP was on, but it wasn't, and he said it with an amused voice. Ha, ha. But it isn't funny at all. That happened to me once, I was using AP, and must have corrected it a bit too much on a turn, so AP turned off. When AP turns off due to steering wheel torque, the signal is very subtle, a low volume sound. It is EASY to miss it especially when you've just grabbed the wheel and are focused on not crashing. Well, I hadn't realized AP was off, so I continued driving down the freeway, hands off the wheel (but close by), and I idly looked down at the AP indicator and noticed it was grey, not blue (again, a pretty subtle difference). Geez, I had been 'driving' for god knows how long on the freeway with no one steering. Great.
So, Elon, it isn't funny, and it is easy for people to not realize AP isn't on, especially when the car turns off AP and doesn't give very big indications it has done so.
I agree with this statement. I also wish I had set a greater distance (time) between cars. The only thing that people don't seem to understand, however, is that I felt I was being vigilant. I was paying attention, my car did slow down, and it gave no indication of any impending problem. I must have been traveling at 10-15 MPH, and by the time I could see I wasn't going to stop in time it was too late. My slaming on the brakes probably decreased my speed to around 8 MPH when I hit the car. Maybe you can argue that I shouldn't have allowed my car to get so close to the car in front of me before taking control of the car, but I wasn't going particularly fast at the time nor did I have any indication the car wouldn't stop. This was not a case where everything slowed down suddenly and I needed to be more vigilant.
At the time, it felt like the AP simply failed at the very last moment and I was fu...ed.
It will be interesting to see what Tesla finds in their logs. Again, were you using 7.1?
Incidentally, collision detect isn't anywhere near foolproof. A friend of mine in his relatively new P85D was coming off a freeway off ramp, going downhill and curving at night. Somehow there was a parked garbage truck on the ramp, and he completely didn't see it, resulting in a big collision. The car's collision detection didn't see it either... (Driver was shaken but OK, all airbags deployed).
Incidentally, collision detect isn't anywhere near foolproof. A friend of mine in his relatively new P85D was coming off a freeway off ramp, going downhill and curving at night. Somehow there was a parked garbage truck on the ramp, and he completely didn't see it, resulting in a big collision. The car's collision detection didn't see it either... (Driver was shaken but OK, all airbags deployed).
bhzmark, at the time it didn't seem to be the case, but I can't be 100% sure. The beating I'm taking on this forum has made me doubt myself a bit.
i was using 7.1. Tesla told me they will have analysis of the logs within the next 48 hours.
I think you're reading too much into the chuckle.
I interpreted as follows: Reality is complicated; you have to laugh at it sometimes to remain sane.
Every time a new technology comes out that does something that we used to do ourselves, somehow the expectation is that it has to not only be better than we would do it. No it has to be perfect. We have this expectation that it needs to be 100% and never show a flaw or even a situation where it would fail.
Google's self driving car project manager said it in a presentation. Self driving car will not prevent all accidents, but it will reduce the number of accidents significantly over people driving themselves. In other words, yes there will still be accidents even when all cars are self driving. It is expected.
One situation where Auto Pilot fails isn't proof that the system should not be used or is a failure. It's just not a perfect system. Nothing is perfect and never fails. It is safer and more reliable than a good driver? That's the key question!
Currently I see AP as another set of eyes looking at the road and stepping in when something happens. But I don't consider it being safer or more reliable than me watching traffic.
Google's self driving car project manager said it in a presentation. Self driving car will not prevent all accidents, but it will reduce the number of accidents significantly over people driving themselves. In other words, yes there will still be accidents even when all cars are self driving. It is expected.
One situation where Auto Pilot fails isn't proof that the system should not be used or is a failure. It's just not a perfect system. Nothing is perfect and never fails. It is safer and more reliable than a good driver? That's the key question!
Currently I see AP as another set of eyes looking at the road and stepping in when something happens. But I don't consider it being safer or more reliable than me watching traffic.
grichard
Member De-Luxe
OP: Before you hit, did you get the really-alarming-sounding beep, and did the car icon on your dashboard turn red?
If you did, then it makes the question of why the front-collision-avoidance system didn't activate even more interesting.
If you did, then it makes the question of why the front-collision-avoidance system didn't activate even more interesting.
Yes! the icon turned red and the car made a horrible sound. I asked the technician at Tesla why the collision avoidance system wouldn't have kicked-in, and he promised to have results within the next 48 hours. I hope I can count on the company to be forthright if they can uncover the problem.
silverp85+
Member
My two cents is that I am sorry about your accident, and if there was an AP failure it needs to be dealt with and fixed. However I still believe that as a group AP probably prevents far more accidents than it causes because humans err at higher rates than computers do. So my only fear about a few AP accidents is that irrational human beings - notoriously bad at estimating risk - will become afraid of using AP because of a few publicized accidents.
Thanks. I completely agree. I initially hesitated to even post about my accident, but I felt kind of a moral duty. Hopefully, if there is a legitimate problem, it can be fixed, and I can post only about how much I love my P90D.
silverp85+
Member
Holy Cow! Thank god you posted about your accident. This is all very important stuff to share and may prevent someone else from having a much more serious accident. Thanks
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Not crazy. That is standard when you hit someone in front from behind. Ask you insurance carrier. fyi
Nah you did the right thing - these data points are important. If anything, hopefully incidents like yours and the resulting negative publicity will push automakers to build in redundant systems sooner rather than later.
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We're in uncharted waters where tech is changing faster than the law and insurance policy. The insurance industry will have to deal with the issue of computer-induced accidents - and soon. I imagine they have working groups discussing policy positions behind the scenes as we speak.
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