im.thatoneguy
Member
I'm all for this. I probably do like 7,500 miles a year * $0.02 = $150. Would eliminate the stupid $75 extra tax I pay.
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Washington SB 5444 - to impose a mileage tax on owners of electric and hybrid vehicles
- Thread starter SnohoBeav
- Start date
brucet999
Active Member
Is Washington gasoline tax 50 cents per gallon? Average car gets 25mpg, so 2 cents/mile times 25 = 50 cents/gallon.
I recently acquired a 2013 model S in Oregon. Forgetting that I had some months back read a newspaper blurb about new DMV fees, I was shocked when my registration tab was about $300 more than expected. These are road usage fees, but not based on miles driven. I for one have several cars and am retired, so my Tesla would not rack up very many miles, but I pay the same amount as someone commuting etc. At least plates here are for TWO years!
Oregon has an optional $.018 per mile program. Could save a little if your mileage is really low. I think EV registration is $220 less per 2 years with that option so the break even point is around 6k miles per year.
I doubt any of the money goes to superchargers buildout, that’s all out of Tesla’s pocket.
The fee will likely fund projects like this West Coast Green Highway: West Coast Electric Highway
I don’t know if there has actually been an audit of it though to show what it’s been going to this last year or so... it’s likely brought in a good amount of money in that time...
Rippin1Gear
Member
I like the pay per mile idea but it should add a weight factor as well and EVs should be 1.5 cents per mile and gas vehicles 2.5 cents. Remove the gas tax, implement RUC per mile and add a flat weight tax (x amount per pounds or whatever calculation). Incentivize EVs a bit more. Electricity is cheaper than gas now but that may change when the transition to EVs happens.
I’m fine going in annually to have a mileage check. I’m not sure how to deal with the out of state miles driven. I don’t drive out of state much so it wouldn’t really effect me but I know that’s not the case for everyone.
I’m fine going in annually to have a mileage check. I’m not sure how to deal with the out of state miles driven. I don’t drive out of state much so it wouldn’t really effect me but I know that’s not the case for everyone.
TunaBug
Member
I don't have a problem with the per-mile thing, but have big concerns about privacy. If they simply check the odometer once a year by me bringing it someplace for in-person inspection that would be fine. But monitoring where I travel, or even being able to remotely grab my odometer more than annually is something I would oppose.
I don't drive outside the state often enough for that to make a significant difference.
I don't drive outside the state often enough for that to make a significant difference.
brucet999
Active Member
Out of state travel may not really be such a problem. After all, every mile traveled causes wear and tear to roads somewhere, so you may pay your home state for damage to other states' roads while people in other states are paying at home for wear and tear due to their driving in your state.
Then again, my argument may have a flaw for those states that are bedroom communities for adjacent business centers; New Hampshire and Boston come to mind.
The main flaw is that all 50 states will not go to pay per mile at the same time (if they ever do at all). Ideally it would be done on a federal level (with the Feds doling out the funding based on an estimate of miles driven in each state), but politically speaking, that will never happen.
As a use tax, that is absolutely awful.
Vehicles should be charged in accordance with how much damage they do to the roads.
The best method, IMO, would be to charge by miles traveled and vehicle weight.
Screw the GPS device, just have an annual mileage declaration. Simple, low cost, and far better than a flat fee.
If people spend a lot of time out of state, give them the option of a gps tracker.
Coming in late on this...
The Portland, OR area is the only place in the west where a fairly large metro area crosses a state border. There are lots of apartment complexes very close to the I-205 freeway just across the border in Vancouver because there are quite a few people who live in Clark County and work in Portland. They get nailed for Oregon income tax, but the schools in Clark County are considered much better than in Multnomah County, so a lot of people have moved across the river to get their kids in better schools. I believe the Camas School district is considered the best or one of the best in the state, and Washougal is not far behind (I don't have kids so I don't pay super close attention). Additionally Vancouver has tended to be a cheaper place to live than Portland, though the cost of housing is catching up fast. When Washington had same sex marriage and Oregon didn't some same sex couples moved to Vancouver.
I know some people who live around here and drive more than 50% of their yearly miles in Oregon.
But Clark County is a forgotten part of Washington. Vancouver has been the fastest growing city in Washington and I think it's about to overtake Spokane in size, but we seem to be more part of Oregon than Washington. Most organizations have Oregon chapters that include Clark County. The Tesla owners club for Oregon includes Clark County and the head of it lives in Vancouver. Being in the Portland media market we get more news about Oregon than Washington too. I didn't even know this bill was proposed until I saw this thread just now.
I live in AZ, but I happened on this thread - two sons in WA (one with a Tesla) and it's not impossible I'll end up there at least as a full- or part-time resident.
Some semi-random thoughts while reading the discussion:
To the idea of a tire-related tax: Teslas famously tend to rapid tire wear because of their high available drive-wheel torque. Think twice if you believe it's neutral or advantageous for Tesla owners.
To the idea of road-wear contribution from your own usage: I think that the need for road maintenance is not primarily from cars driving miles; it's more from weather damage. Water in coastal WA, moisture + hard freezes inland, large daily temperature excursions in AZ. If you're homebound during Covid or its aftermath, you're presumably getting more deliveries. If you live in the city and you walk, ride, bike or scoot around, you are being supported by a huge goods and services network over the roads (a point surprisingly unrecognized by dedicated urbanites). All this argues that everyone needs the roads and it's not so much tied to personal miles traveled on them. It really says that the taxes for roads should not be from gas usage or motor vehicle registration in the first place, but perhaps from sales (general consumption of goods and services) or property (looser correlation to roads but more progressive*), or income (poor correlation to roads but yet more progressive*). A simple equal head tax is probably fair regarding roads and other things, but historically unpopular.
Of course if you believe strongly in EV incentivization and ICE punishment (and more generally in tax policy as a lever to force change rather than just to pay for costs of required public expenditures), you'll like a gas tax and dislike an equally-applied car-registration fee. This is arguably a politically-Progressive view with a debatable environmental-impact basis, though also arguably elitist as a benefit to a wealthier demographic and thus economically regressive (a quite-common pattern today).
To the topic of tracking, monitoring & reporting: I know we're being tracked both personally and meta-datically already, but I'd hate to see any new precedent of government reporting sourced from our cars or homes or persons. If a mileage-based tax is adopted despite the points discussed above, then I like the self-reporting of annual odometer readings the best. Simple, least intrusive, maintains the important feeling of voluntary compliance with little real risk of successful cheating. If a type-it-in method isn't good enough, then I could envision an option in the Tesla app/website that, under owner control, creates a VIN-associated report, QR code or whatever, for upload or mailing to tax and/or DMV authorities each year. About the same as other reporting requirements and associated software. This could also include any system-health diagnostics to satisfy states that still want safety inspections. The emissions-testing and safety-inspection stations should largely wither and eventually disappear, with only a small backup to handle compliance issues flagged by law enforcement
To the people who simply grouse about government idiots and taxes, I'm with you in spirit but that's beyond the scope of an EV forum. If EVs and Tesla grow at a screaming rate, then gas-tax revenue will disappear and something has to give. Even a mythical perfect, waste-free government needs to have funds for the road system.
Some semi-random thoughts while reading the discussion:
To the idea of a tire-related tax: Teslas famously tend to rapid tire wear because of their high available drive-wheel torque. Think twice if you believe it's neutral or advantageous for Tesla owners.
To the idea of road-wear contribution from your own usage: I think that the need for road maintenance is not primarily from cars driving miles; it's more from weather damage. Water in coastal WA, moisture + hard freezes inland, large daily temperature excursions in AZ. If you're homebound during Covid or its aftermath, you're presumably getting more deliveries. If you live in the city and you walk, ride, bike or scoot around, you are being supported by a huge goods and services network over the roads (a point surprisingly unrecognized by dedicated urbanites). All this argues that everyone needs the roads and it's not so much tied to personal miles traveled on them. It really says that the taxes for roads should not be from gas usage or motor vehicle registration in the first place, but perhaps from sales (general consumption of goods and services) or property (looser correlation to roads but more progressive*), or income (poor correlation to roads but yet more progressive*). A simple equal head tax is probably fair regarding roads and other things, but historically unpopular.
*progressive in the mathematical tax-rate sense, not the Progressive political-philosophy sense, though there's a lot of overlap in practice.
Of course if you believe strongly in EV incentivization and ICE punishment (and more generally in tax policy as a lever to force change rather than just to pay for costs of required public expenditures), you'll like a gas tax and dislike an equally-applied car-registration fee. This is arguably a politically-Progressive view with a debatable environmental-impact basis, though also arguably elitist as a benefit to a wealthier demographic and thus economically regressive (a quite-common pattern today).
To the topic of tracking, monitoring & reporting: I know we're being tracked both personally and meta-datically already, but I'd hate to see any new precedent of government reporting sourced from our cars or homes or persons. If a mileage-based tax is adopted despite the points discussed above, then I like the self-reporting of annual odometer readings the best. Simple, least intrusive, maintains the important feeling of voluntary compliance with little real risk of successful cheating. If a type-it-in method isn't good enough, then I could envision an option in the Tesla app/website that, under owner control, creates a VIN-associated report, QR code or whatever, for upload or mailing to tax and/or DMV authorities each year. About the same as other reporting requirements and associated software. This could also include any system-health diagnostics to satisfy states that still want safety inspections. The emissions-testing and safety-inspection stations should largely wither and eventually disappear, with only a small backup to handle compliance issues flagged by law enforcement
To the people who simply grouse about government idiots and taxes, I'm with you in spirit but that's beyond the scope of an EV forum. If EVs and Tesla grow at a screaming rate, then gas-tax revenue will disappear and something has to give. Even a mythical perfect, waste-free government needs to have funds for the road system.
TunaBug
Member
I _do_ think that self reporting won't work (too easy to lie: hey I drove only 100 miles last year!). I figured it would be easy enough for somebody at the DMV to just stick their head in the car and read the odometer. But your idea that I would instruct the car to tell the DMV my mileage is even better.
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