Water heater: Gas to electric conversion illegal in California?

[wwu123]

I think you’ll see a big push for heat pump water heaters in California starting next year. The state sees them as a way to reduce carbon fuel use, as well as a way to soak up the surplus solar PV during the day by setting when they preheat water. Discussion currently of adding them to the SGIP program. My utility Edison is going to be offering a rebate soon too.

There are also local municipalities trying to ban natural gas in new construction, ahead of any statewide efforts, for similar reasons.

One effort going on near me. Don't think most folks would mind much about gas vs heat pump water heater - but take away gas burners for cooking, the pitchforks came out en masse. Then add that their mayor is an exec for one of the regional electricity CCA's, huge controversy.

 

[Janus]

Then add that their mayor is an exec for one of the regional electricity CCA's, huge controversy.

SJCE is run by the city, and SVCE's board is made-up solely by the majors of its jurisdiction. Not exactly sure where the controversy is... The only other option is PG&E, and that's a corporation which is run by its investors. I'd rather have my electrical generation managed by someone I've elected, vs. by some for-profit corporation.

 

[wwu123]

SJCE is run by the city, and SVCE's board is made-up solely by the majors of its jurisdiction. Not exactly sure where the controversy is... The only other option is PG&E, and that's a corporation which is run by its investors. I'd rather have my electrical generation managed by someone I've elected, vs. by some for-profit corporation.

I was talking about the mayor of Los Altos pushing to ban natural gas, while being the president of PCE, which sells only electricity. Even though PCE doesn't serve the area (SVCE does), many perceive it as a conflict of interest.

 

[njhtran]

Hmmm.. maybe I'm missing something but my natural gas bill is a whopping $20 a month most months except Jan-Feb. From the sound of it, everyone here sounds like their water heater is costing them a lot more than that?

 

[jboy210]

Hmmm.. maybe I'm missing something but my natural gas bill is a whopping $20 a month most months except Jan-Feb. From the sound of it, everyone here sounds like their water heater is costing them a lot more than that?

Yep. I don't think we spend more than $25 a month all summer long when the only gas we use is for our tankless water heater.

 

[charlesj]

SJCE is run by the city, and SVCE's board is made-up solely by the majors of its jurisdiction. Not exactly sure where the controversy is... The only other option is PG&E, and that's a corporation which is run by its investors. I'd rather have my electrical generation managed by someone I've elected, vs. by some for-profit corporation.

Oh, don't forget, PG&E twice convicted felony murder, the fires up north last year and before or so and the gas explosion.
In one case they are people but in the other case they cannot be sent to jail for felony conviction. How can they be both, people when contributing and non people when convicted for such crimes. My rant.

 

[charlesj]

We use 0.5 therms a day heating water, cooking and drying for about 7 month out of the year.
Home heating is radiant with its own gas heater, then usage goes up.
By the therm comparison, electricity is about 30 times more than gas so your electric usage needs to be less even if you have excess production.
1 therm-100,000 BTU; 1 kWh is about 3412 BTU .
Of course you have to check other charges for each.

 

[charlesj]

They actually had rebates on them last year also. I got a $500 credit from SCE. I did pretty well considering that I also got it when it went on sale for $1000 at some point, and also I claimed the $300 Fed credit too.

All in all including the parts I paid to install, it cost me about $400 and is now saving me about $20 a month in Gas. I have Solar, and with the <1 kWh it uses most days, I've not seen a hit yet in my Electric use either, and am still going negative. Love the fact it cools the garage also and soaks up the heat from the cars charging. Its a win win.

My only remaining fossil fuel possession is the clothes dryer, so I'm going to replace that also with a heat pump one... that is when I can be bothered to run a 240V supply to our laundry on the second floor.

What power outlet and breaker does that need. I would have to run wires, a very big hassle.
Don't know how many in your family or water heater size but I have a 40 gal tank, 2 people, gas dryer and cooking as well and my usage last month was 16 therms at $21. I'd guess about half is for water heating perhaps. Extra charges are nill mat $1.

 

[charlesj]

I had a 65 gallon Rheem (Ruud) put in a few months ago. It's working great and pulls 3kWh-7kWh a day. They gave an App that lets you flip demand modes and see the power usage.

What power requirement for that? I don't have 240V where the heater would go.

That would be 90kWh-210kWh a month most every month.

 

[nwdiver]

What power outlet and breaker does that need. I would have to run wires, a very big hassle.
Don't know how many in your family or water heater size but I have a 40 gal tank, 2 people, gas dryer and cooking as well and my usage last month was 16 therms at $21. I'd guess about half is for water heating perhaps. Extra charges are nill mat $1.

16 therms = 464kWh; A HPWH uses ~70% less energy than a gas water heater so you would only need ~140kWh. During the summer I would expect ~90% of gas use is for water heating unless you're running a soup kitchen.

 

[arnolddeleon]

What power requirement for that? I don't have 240V where the heater would go.

That would be 90kWh-210kWh a month most every month.

There is a version of the 65 gallon Rheem that only needs a 20A 240V circuit. If you have dedicated 20A 120V circuit an electrician should be able to give you a 20A 240V circuit suitable for this application.

 

[arnolddeleon]

I was talking about the mayor of Los Altos pushing to ban natural gas, while being the president of PCE, which sells only electricity. Even though PCE doesn't serve the area (SVCE does), many perceive it as a conflict of interest.

Silicon Valley Clean Energy is certainly pushing all electric households. They have rebates for replacing gas water heaters with heat pump models.

 

[msm859]

They're selling the Rheem hybrids at my local Home Depot. Somebody isn't enforcing it, lol.

I was thinking gas-electric hybrid water-heater. Gas for primary-heating, heat-pump for maintenance heating. I guess they don't make that yet?

This except a gas/electric hybrid version of it: Natural Gas Heat Pump Water Heater Tech Under Development for US | Proud Green Home

Well I kind of have that. I have a heat pump water heater that in the winter I use to preheat the water to @90 degrees until it goes to my gas boiler and indirect water heater. From spring to fall I turn off the boiler and with a 3 way valve have the heat pump water heater turned up and take care of all the dhw use.

 

[jboy210]

Yep. I don't think we spend more than $25 a month all summer long when the only gas we use is for our tankless water heater.

Need to modify this. We also have a 6 burner Wolf cooktop. Nothing like cooking with a gas range.

So cost for water heating well below the $25/mo

 

[charlesj]

16 therms = 464kWh; A HPWH uses ~70% less energy than a gas water heater so you would only need ~140kWh. During the summer I would expect ~90% of gas use is for water heating unless you're running a soup kitchen.

Yes, it may use less but the cost differential for electricity and gas is a ratio of 29 that has to be met. While we have solar and may have excess generation, the cost may be free, in reality, how much would that 140kWh cost on the PG$E market?

That 16 therms is the summer usage without a soup kitchen The unknown question without instrumentation is the ratio of gas usage for heating water and the rest, cooking and cloth drying. Is it 50%? 70% for water heating?
Even at 100%, 16 therms, what is the cost of both energy source on the marketplace.

 

[charlesj]

There is a version of the 65 gallon Rheem that only needs a 20A 240V circuit. If you have dedicated 20A 120V circuit an electrician should be able to give you a 20A 240V circuit suitable for this application.

I will have to check what I have next to the water heater that runs the recirc water line and the other heater for winter radiant solenoids.
May or may not be 20A wiring.
Thanks.

 

[nwdiver]

in reality, how much would that 140kWh cost on the PG$E market?

Depending on the time of day it could be negative. That's the other great thing about a HPWH... it doubles as a thermal battery. Use energy when the cost goes negative to heat the water.

 

[charlesj]

Depending on the time of day it could be negative. That's the other great thing about a HPWH... it doubles as a thermal battery. Use energy when the cost goes negative to heat the water.

This is what I was after for electricity cost from @holeydonut in another thread "I am paying $0.38 per kWh during the sheltering in place... PG&E is totally gouging homeowners."
A therm of gas energy on my last bill was $1.37. Same amount of energy from electricity would cost holeydonut $14.
We are in a different boat with solar.
For holeydonut that hybrid water heater would have to use 1/10 the energy just to break even.

 

[nwdiver]

This is what I was after for electricity cost from @holeydonut in another thread "I am paying $0.38 per kWh during the sheltering in place... PG&E is totally gouging homeowners."
A therm of gas energy on my last bill was $1.37. Same amount of energy from electricity would cost holeydonut $14.
We are in a different boat with solar.
For holeydonut that hybrid water heater would have to use 1/10 the energy just to break even.

They're not 'gouging' you. That $0.38/kWh is an average taken across a day with a system that is working to upgrade and modernize as opposed to the fools fuel infrastructure that provides gas service and has been bought and paid for over a decade ago. The best way to get that $0.38/kWh lower is to flatten demand. The best way to flatten demand is load shifting. One of the most cost effective ways to load shift is a HPWH. I agree utilities should do more to encourage this.

 

[holeydonut]

They're not 'gouging' you. That $0.38/kWh is an average taken across a day with a system that is working to upgrade and modernize as opposed to the fools fuel infrastructure that provides gas service and has been bought and paid for over a decade ago. The best way to get that $0.38/kWh lower is to flatten demand. The best way to flatten demand is load shifting. One of the most cost effective ways to load shift is a HPWH. I agree utilities should do more to encourage this.

I agree in the general premise of your statement. There is a investment to be made in order for us to be at the forefront of using renewables and moving away from nuclear and fossil fuels.

But it’s clear California is mismanaged and those elected or appointed to carry out this vision have misplaced a large amount of this investment in botched ROI events. The result is per kWh energy that is almost 3x the national average.

PG&E wants people to believe the message you posed that we’re paying it forward to be better.

But the evidence I see just shows PG&E building and shuttering numerous plants over the years making select contractors rich. Then they fail to maintain infrastructure so they owe billions in legal fees. Plus they pay huge dividends and keep their special interests special.

Then I pay over $400 a month of electricity for a family of 4 during the pandemic. I don’t even have a pool or crazy appliance. I don’t think pg&e deserves your defense backing their side of the story.