Waymo is now exclusive L4 partner for Volvo!

[diplomat33]

This is confirmation that Tesla considered the FSD demo video to be L3. I believe this is the first reference to L3 that I've seen from Tesla. I think we assumed that Tesla wants to go straight to L5 but this hints that Tesla might go L3 first at some point by removing the AP nags in certain situations. Although I am not sure how that is going to work without a driver monitoring camera.

It also seems to confirm that Tesla will remove the AP nags and driver monitoring requirements when they are ready to make AP L3+.

I feel like this is some interesting tidbits.

 

[R_Stephens]

Toyota ?????​

They are working on a new hydrogen based self-driving solution. Supposed to be the next best thing.

 

[Knightshade]

This is confirmation that Tesla considered the FSD demo video to be L3. I believe this is the first reference to L3 that I've seen from Tesla. I think we assumed that Tesla wants to go straight to L5 but this hints that Tesla might go L3 first at some point by removing the AP nags in certain situations. Although I am not sure how that is going to work without a driver monitoring camera.

It also seems to confirm that Tesla will remove the AP nags and driver monitoring requirements when they are ready to make AP L3+.

I feel like this is some interesting tidbits.

I've been saying for a couple years now I bought FSD with the belief the miniumum I thought Tesla could manage with current hardware was L3 on highways- and since 95% of my driving is highway I'd be perfectly happy to get that for the 3k I paid for it.

Don't see why you'd need driver monitoring in that case- L3 specifically does not require the driver to be paying attention- just that he's physically there to take over on short, but not immediate, notice.

Seat sensor can do THAT.

 

[diplomat33]

I've been saying for a couple years now I bought FSD with the belief the miniumum I thought Tesla could manage with current hardware was L3 on highways- and since 95% of my driving is highway I'd be perfectly happy to get that for the 3k I paid for it.

Don't see why you'd need driver monitoring in that case- L3 specifically does not require the driver to be paying attention- just that he's physically there to take over on short, but not immediate, notice.

Seat sensor can do THAT.

Yes but what if the driver is present but not able to take over in short notice? At a minimum, I would think the car would need to pull over or stop safely if the driver fails to respond to multiple prompts to take over. I think AP currently does stop the car if you fail to respond to the AP nags, so that could work.

I imagine what Tesla could do is when AP goes into "L3 mode", it would turn off all nags and driver monitoring. But when AP thinks it cannot handle something, it would drop back to the current "L2 mode" and resume nags and give the alerts to hold the wheel again. If the driver fails to do so, the car would come to a safe stop and put the hazards on. I would still prefer a driver facing camera to better make sure that the driver is able to take over when prompted though. Considering the issues Tesla has had with accidents where the nags were not enough to keep the driver paying attention at a critical time, I feel that might be very risky. Tesla would have to be 100% confident that AP was ready for L3 for those instances.

I would certainly love L3 highway. It would not even need to be all highway driving. Even if AP could do L3 for just some of highway driving, and not have nags in those instances, that would be fantastic.

 

[Knightshade]

Yes but what if the driver is present but not able to take over in short notice?

So what, unconscious?

Interior camera could likely handle that (though it's nowhere near good enough or in a good position to judge if you're "paying attention"- but you don't need to be for L3)

I suppose sun glasses would still be an issue since it's not the right type of camera to see through them, but it doesn't need to be perfect- it's not like the CURRENT wheel sensor is perfect for detecting paying attention but they use it anyway.

Y
At a minimum, I would think the car would need to pull over or stop safely if the driver fails to respond to multiple prompts to take over. I think AP currently does stop the car if you fail to respond to the AP nags, so that could work.

It stops if you don't respond- but doesn't know how to "pull over safety" it just stops wherever it is right in your lane (and turns on hazzards IIRC)


IIRC requiring "can pull over safely on its own if human doesn't take over" is L4, not 3. 3 REQUIRES the human to be able to take over within some limited time period, just not immediately.

• Level 3 ("eyes off"): The driver can safely turn their attention away from the driving tasks, e.g. the driver can text or watch a movie. The vehicle will handle situations that call for an immediate response, like emergency braking. The driver must still be prepared to intervene within some limited time, specified by the manufacturer, when called upon by the vehicle to do so. You can think of the automated system as a co-driver that will alert you in an orderly fashion when it is your turn to drive. An example would be a Traffic Jam Chauffeur.[59]
• Level 4 ("mind off"): As level 3, but no driver attention is ever required for safety, e.g. the driver may safely go to sleep or leave the driver's seat. Self-driving is supported only in limited spatial areas (geofenced) or under special circumstances. Outside of these areas or circumstances, the vehicle must be able to safely abort the trip, e.g. park the car, if the driver does not retake control. An example would be a robotic taxi or a robotic delivery service that only covers selected locations in a specific area.
• Level 5 ("steering wheel optional"): No human intervention is required at all. An example would be a robotic taxi that works on all roads all over the world, all year around, in all weather conditions.

I would certainly love L3 highway. It would not even need to be all highway driving. Even if AP could do L3 for just some of highway driving, and not have nags in those instances, that would be fantastic.

Yeah pretty much I just want to be able to read or watch a show/movie or play a game while the car drives me to work/back or wherever on the highway- L3 is good enough for that.

 

[ThomasD]

Will Tesla take full responsibility if there is an accident or incident while in L3 driving mode

 

[diplomat33]

So what, unconscious?

Interior camera could likely handle that (though it's nowhere near good enough or in a good position to judge if you're "paying attention"- but you don't need to be for L3)

I suppose sun glasses would still be an issue since it's not the right type of camera to see through them, but it doesn't need to be perfect- it's not like the CURRENT wheel sensor is perfect for detecting paying attention but they use it anyway.




It stops if you don't respond- but doesn't know how to "pull over safety" it just stops wherever it is right in your lane (and turns on hazzards IIRC)


IIRC requiring "can pull over safely on its own if human doesn't take over" is L4, not 3. 3 REQUIRES the human to be able to take over within some limited time period, just not immediately.

• Level 3 ("eyes off"): The driver can safely turn their attention away from the driving tasks, e.g. the driver can text or watch a movie. The vehicle will handle situations that call for an immediate response, like emergency braking. The driver must still be prepared to intervene within some limited time, specified by the manufacturer, when called upon by the vehicle to do so. You can think of the automated system as a co-driver that will alert you in an orderly fashion when it is your turn to drive. An example would be a Traffic Jam Chauffeur.[59]
• Level 4 ("mind off"): As level 3, but no driver attention is ever required for safety, e.g. the driver may safely go to sleep or leave the driver's seat. Self-driving is supported only in limited spatial areas (geofenced) or under special circumstances. Outside of these areas or circumstances, the vehicle must be able to safely abort the trip, e.g. park the car, if the driver does not retake control. An example would be a robotic taxi or a robotic delivery service that only covers selected locations in a specific area.
• Level 5 ("steering wheel optional"): No human intervention is required at all. An example would be a robotic taxi that works on all roads all over the world, all year around, in all weather conditions.

Yeah pretty much I just want to be able to read or watch a show/movie or play a game while the car drives me to work/back or wherever on the highway- L3 is good enough for that.

Thanks. I do understand how L3 works. I get that L3 does not require the driver to pay attention unless the system asks the driver to take over. And yes, the car can come to a safe stop and put on the hazards if the driver is not able to take over. The tricky part is that transition from machine to human where the L3 asks the driver to take over. That transition needs to be smooth, safe and reliable. You don't want a situation where the car asks the driver to take over and thinks that the driver is paying attention again but they really aren't. I am just not sure if the current AP nags are reliable enough to ensure that good transition.

 

[diplomat33]

Will Tesla take full responsibility if there is an accident or incident while in L3 driving mode

If the incident happened when the L3 asked the driver to resume control and gave the driver multiple warnings to do so, I imagine Tesla will be able to blame the driver since they were supposed to take over. But if the incident happened when the car was in full L3 mode and the driver was not required to pay attention, then I think Tesla would be responsible.

 

[Knightshade]

Thanks. I do understand how L3 works. I get that L3 does not require the driver to pay attention unless the system asks the driver to take over. And yes, the car can come to a safe stop and put on the hazards if the driver is not able to take over. The tricky part is that transition from machine to human where the L3 asks the driver to take over. That transition needs to be smooth, safe and reliable. You don't want a situation where the car asks the driver to take over and thinks that the driver is paying attention again but they really aren't. I am just not sure if the current AP nags are reliable enough to ensure that good transition.

But what I'm saying it- if it can safely pull over and stop without a human taking over- then it's not L3 anymore, it's L4.

L3 still requires a human backup driver even if it's one that doesn't have to actively be paying attention moment to moment, it has no fail-safe if that isn't there and it leaves the operational domain in which it can self-drive- the human IS the failsafe.

L4 does have its own fail-safe if it's leaving its operational domain and nobody is there to take over.


This gets a little goofy if you think it through of course... so like if a car maker said "Hey, our car is now level 4 highway!" you'd probably end up with exit ramps filled with pulled over cars and sleeping drivers.

But that's how the SAE levels are written.

 

[diplomat33]

L3 still requires a human backup driver even if it's one that doesn't have to actively be paying attention moment to moment, it has no fail-safe if that isn't there and it leaves the operational domain in which it can self-drive- the human IS the failsafe.

Yes, I get that. And I am trying to say that I am not sure the AP nags is a good system. Precisely because to be a good back-up driver, you need a good system for making that transition from machine to human. I am not sure the AP nags is a good system for that.

 

[Knightshade]

Yes, I get that. And I am trying to say that I am not sure the AP nags is a good system. Precisely because to be a good back-up driver, you need a good system for making that transition from machine to human. I am not sure the AP nags is a good system for that.

Many folks don't think it's a good system for L2 either (see the Huang crash for example)

But it's what we've got- and apparently the NHTSA doesn't find it bad enough to do anything about it despite years of people thinking it's not a good system.

L3 requires LESS attention than 2, so I don't see why if they let it slide with 2 they'd have a problem with it on 3.