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Waymo

Discussion in 'Autopilot & Autonomous/FSD' started by Daniel in SD, Oct 5, 2020.

  1. Daniel in SD

    Daniel in SD Well-Known Member

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    Waymo no longer has an NDA for Waymo One passengers. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything since Waymo does not plan on ever developing Level 2-3 systems (Very advanced Level 2 was actually their original plan until they decided it was too unsafe. They released a YouTube video of the internal cameras of their prototypes showing people not properly monitoring the system).

    What's likely to happen is that camera based driver monitoring will be required for all Level 2 and 3 systems.
     
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  2. SOULPEDL

    SOULPEDL Supporting Member

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    Waymo only level 2-3 from the start? Not my interpretation from sources like The Verge a couple years back. About the same time they tried to get me to sign an NDA and I declined. Plus, why would they be driving around my neighborhood without driver or passenger, while being rated as the #1 or 2 in Driving Autonomy? Past or present, no matter.

    It's because of this Waymos PR campaign, along with other Self-driving companies (media not excluded), that I essentially ONLY trust Tesla with camera data. The battle for FSD dominance was clear to me years ago and it was everyone against Tesla. Trust takes a long time to build back up, and I don't forget. An example of trustworthy behavior was when Elon cut off a presentation on Battery Day to say something like "well, um uh, it's not quite ready... the yield isn't quite there yet but almost."

    So I believe when Tesla says they won't associate cabin video with VINs, and also trust they will secure it better than most for obvious reasons of both skill and long-term goals.
     
  3. diplomat33

    diplomat33 Well-Known Member

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    You misunderstand. Way back when Waymo first started, they briefly considered offering L2 or L3 to consumers but they discovered it would not be safe because drivers don't pay attention. So they decided to skip L2/L3 entirely and focus only on L4 since driver attention is not required for L4. Waymo is L4 autonomy now. That is why they are #1 because they have driverless L4.
     
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  4. SOULPEDL

    SOULPEDL Supporting Member

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    Oh that makes sense too. I didn't know they were L4 making the drivers basically attendants for getting unstuck I assume. Thanks, good to know.
     
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  5. diplomat33

    diplomat33 Well-Known Member

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    Yep, Waymo safety drivers are just there in case the car gets stuck. Waymo also discovered that some passengers are more comfortable with a safety driver because the idea of a driverless car makes them nervous. But Waymo has a disengagement rate around 10,000 miles per disengagement so the safety drivers don't have to do much.
     
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  6. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney Well-Known Member

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    Yes, at that rate, they're probably only preventing a few crashes per year. Pointless.

    Not surprised Tesla is working on the inside camera. They'll know regulation is coming.
     
  7. SOULPEDL

    SOULPEDL Supporting Member

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    I do recall the ads showing people relaxed or happy as ever, even resting. I guess I can't hold it against them for trying to get the public to accept the technology, but that still fed my trust issue with them early on.
     
  8. diplomat33

    diplomat33 Well-Known Member

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    It's not pointless. You have to start somewhere. FSD is a work in progress. Waymo's FSD will get better.
     
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  9. Daniel in SD

    Daniel in SD Well-Known Member

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    From 2010. At 1:20
    Reporter: It's not intended to replace drivers but to help them.
    Engineer: It's like, you know, super cruise control.

    They changed their mind and decided to pursue only Level 4.

    What's about Waymo's PR campaign do you find so offensive? Everyone seems to be doing the same thing. Testing vehicles and releasing demo videos. People think Waymo is ahead because they've demonstrated more sophisticated self-driving. Many people here think Tesla will catch up quickly.
    Presumably Waymo only uses the interior camera to make sure you're not damaging their vehicles! Expecting them not to have interior cameras on robotaxis is crazy. If they ever sell Level 4 vehicles, which I doubt they will do anytime soon, I'm sure the camera will be optional.
    I also don't really understand your complaint about NDAs. Tesla certainly has NDAs for all the people working on FSD too.
     
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  10. SOULPEDL

    SOULPEDL Supporting Member

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    Deceptive or political would be a better word, but like I said, I guess I can't blame capitalism at work there. But it started with the NDA as an indication that maybe their public statements could not be trusted completely. Then I saw the blissful ads and I imagined the top pressure stemming from the cost of paying all those drivers $20/hr at Waymo. I'm sure that was a tough reality check. (OT, so with a driver still necessary, how is this making any more money than a passenger van? Boy, I need a refresh and haven't been following much lately.)
     
  11. diplomat33

    diplomat33 Well-Known Member

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    #11 diplomat33, Oct 5, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2020
    Not sure what you mean by deceptive or political. Once Waymo had good FSD, they launched an early access program in Chandler, AZ where they allowed some people to join and provide feedback by riding in their robotaxis with safety drivers. Now, as the FSD has gotten better, they have opened up to the general public and have removed the safety driver from some rides. They are are testing in 25 cities (with no passengers) and will probably launch ride hailing services in those cities once they deem the software good enough to handle everything with no risk.

    Waymo is doing some rides with no safety driver. They are just keeping safety drivers for those routes where they think there might still be a risk of an accident. It's just part of Waymo's high safety process since they are carrying passengers in their robotaxis. Personally, I think it's better to play it safe and keep a safety driver perhaps longer than necessary than to have an accident where a passenger gets injured and essentially kill autonomous driving because the public loses all trust in autonomous driving.

    The safety driver is still necessary because the FSD is not perfect yet. it is a still a work in progress. But it is the most advanced FSD we have in the world today. No it is not making money yet. But it will once they perfect the FSD and are able to permanently remove the safety driver from all robotaxis.

    I have to say, I find it interesting to see Tesla fans being so hard on Waymo for not making money yet or for still needing safety drivers in some rides. Waymo has achieved the best FSD in the world, far better than Tesla or anyone else. What Waymo has achieved so far is a true technological miracle. I don't see anyone else with robotaxis with no safety drivers in them, taking passengers around a city with no accidents. I don't see Tesla with hundreds of cars driving around with no driver in them. But somehow it is not good enough because it is not perfect yet?
     
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  12. Daniel in SD

    Daniel in SD Well-Known Member

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    I think you're confusing Waymo with Uber...
     
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  13. SOULPEDL

    SOULPEDL Supporting Member

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    It's clear ppl in this room think an NDA is fine for controlling the perfect narrative. My opinion.
     
  14. diplomat33

    diplomat33 Well-Known Member

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    I think NDA's are pretty common though.
     
  15. Daniel in SD

    Daniel in SD Well-Known Member

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    Tesla requires NDA's for the early access program. Companies like to keep what they're working on under wraps until it's released.
     
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  16. SOULPEDL

    SOULPEDL Supporting Member

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    But I didn't need an NDA with Tesla yet it is clearly Beta as stated.

    Only a few people involved, yes an NDA is essential at first but this was done in public, IMO without reasonable assumption of privacy (or protection, but I'm not a lawyer). Besides, they're not giving away the code by driving around passengers.

    I get it people, Marketing decided it too risky if people shared how many times it was stuck in traffic or if the brakes threw them forward by surprise, and then went and shared their fear stories with all their friends. That's how I felt back then, maybe it was misdirected media anger. But Tesla trusted me and it was mutual. So, Tesla fan? Nah... more like a Brother.
     
  17. diplomat33

    diplomat33 Well-Known Member

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    You didn't need a NDA with Tesla because you were not in the Early Access. You got the software that Tesla released to the general public. Yes, Tesla still calls it "beta" but it was the software released the public, hence no NDA. If you had been in Tesla's Early Access with the pre-release software, you would have needed a NDA too.

    Waymo does not have a NDA anymore for the general public. The NDA was only for Early Access before they released the robotaxis to the general public.
     
  18. Daniel in SD

    Daniel in SD Well-Known Member

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    The Tesla Early Access Program participants test software in public and I think there are a lot of them. The reason for they NDA is exactly as you describe, Tesla marketing doesn't want people talking about features before they're ready for release.
    The Waymo One service does not require an NDA. It's also mostly beta, they do have some safety driverless rides.
    I have no idea what you're accusing Waymo of doing regarding privacy.
    So, you're saying Tesla trusted you with company secrets and didn't force you to sign an NDA? o_O
     
  19. diplomat33

    diplomat33 Well-Known Member

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    Since this is a Waymo thread, I thought I would share this video. It's from 9 months ago but it does a good job of demonstrating some of Waymo's capabilities. You can see the car is fully driverless and is able to handle a trip from start to finish with no issues.

     
  20. SOULPEDL

    SOULPEDL Supporting Member

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    Reading in too deep. I'm out.
     
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