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Waymo

Daniel in SD

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Jan 25, 2018
6,851
9,729
San Diego
Masking tape (or a clever clip design) solves it for all who want to maintain privacy. The trade-off could be their safety by also defeating automation features. But ultimately their choice and associated higher insurance rates that would likely follow. Funny how the system will work itself out there. Indirectly they'd be paying for their own privacy much like paying to stop those annoying ads, both being your choice to make.

Myself, have trusted Tesla with full video in cabin since getting our Model 3 in early 2018. I have even made faces at the camera during the goofy times. However, I would not trust others such as Waymo who keep their inner workings a secret (through Non-Disclosure Agreements, or "NDAs") while boasting high reliability and consumer safety, and receiving the highest marks by the "experts" that don't even put Tesla FSD on the Top 10 list. To me, that's a trust problem. I don't care what they say, it's what they do that builds trust. Hiding or spinning the facts - that's what cheaters do.

BTW, GM Cruise has been tracking eyes-on-the-road as well for years, but I've never seen anything in the media to challenge driver privacy there. That's a double standard to all those pressing the "Publish" button in the sold-out media, for more loss of trust.
Waymo no longer has an NDA for Waymo One passengers. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything since Waymo does not plan on ever developing Level 2-3 systems (Very advanced Level 2 was actually their original plan until they decided it was too unsafe. They released a YouTube video of the internal cameras of their prototypes showing people not properly monitoring the system).

What's likely to happen is that camera based driver monitoring will be required for all Level 2 and 3 systems.
 
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SOULPEDL

Active Member
Jul 25, 2016
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Arizona
Waymo no longer has an NDA for Waymo One passengers. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything since Waymo does not plan on ever developing Level 2-3 systems (Very advanced Level 2 was actually their original plan until they decided it was too unsafe. They released a YouTube video of the internal cameras of their prototypes showing people not properly monitoring the system).

What's likely to happen is that camera based driver monitoring will be required for all Level 2 and 3 systems.

Waymo only level 2-3 from the start? Not my interpretation from sources like The Verge a couple years back. About the same time they tried to get me to sign an NDA and I declined. Plus, why would they be driving around my neighborhood without driver or passenger, while being rated as the #1 or 2 in Driving Autonomy? Past or present, no matter.

It's because of this Waymos PR campaign, along with other Self-driving companies (media not excluded), that I essentially ONLY trust Tesla with camera data. The battle for FSD dominance was clear to me years ago and it was everyone against Tesla. Trust takes a long time to build back up, and I don't forget. An example of trustworthy behavior was when Elon cut off a presentation on Battery Day to say something like "well, um uh, it's not quite ready... the yield isn't quite there yet but almost."

So I believe when Tesla says they won't associate cabin video with VINs, and also trust they will secure it better than most for obvious reasons of both skill and long-term goals.
 

diplomat33

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2017
8,165
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Terre Haute, IN USA
Waymo only level 2-3 from the start? Not my interpretation from sources like The Verge a couple years back. About the same time they tried to get me to sign an NDA and I declined. Plus, why would they be driving around my neighborhood without driver or passenger, while being rated as the #1 or 2 in Driving Autonomy? Past or present, no matter.

You misunderstand. Way back when Waymo first started, they briefly considered offering L2 or L3 to consumers but they discovered it would not be safe because drivers don't pay attention. So they decided to skip L2/L3 entirely and focus only on L4 since driver attention is not required for L4. Waymo is L4 autonomy now. That is why they are #1 because they have driverless L4.
 
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SOULPEDL

Active Member
Jul 25, 2016
3,404
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Arizona
You misunderstand. Way back when Waymo first started, they briefly considered offering L2 or L3 to consumers but they discovered it would not be safe because drivers don't pay attention. So they decided to skip L2/L3 entirely and focus only on L4 since driver attention is not required for L4. Waymo is L4 autonomy now. That is why they are #1 because they have driverless L4.
Oh that makes sense too. I didn't know they were L4 making the drivers basically attendants for getting unstuck I assume. Thanks, good to know.
 
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diplomat33

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Aug 3, 2017
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Terre Haute, IN USA
Oh that makes sense too. I didn't know they were L4 making the drivers basically attendants for getting unstuck I assume. Thanks, good to know.

Yep, Waymo safety drivers are just there in case the car gets stuck. Waymo also discovered that some passengers are more comfortable with a safety driver because the idea of a driverless car makes them nervous. But Waymo has a disengagement rate around 10,000 miles per disengagement so the safety drivers don't have to do much.
 

ItsNotAboutTheMoney

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Jul 12, 2012
10,766
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Maine
Yep, Waymo safety drivers are just there in case the car gets stuck. Waymo also discovered that some passengers are more comfortable with a safety driver because the idea of a driverless car makes them nervous. But Waymo has a disengagement rate around 10,000 miles per disengagement so the safety drivers don't have to do much.

Yes, at that rate, they're probably only preventing a few crashes per year. Pointless.

Not surprised Tesla is working on the inside camera. They'll know regulation is coming.
 

SOULPEDL

Active Member
Jul 25, 2016
3,404
13,558
Arizona
Yep, Waymo safety drivers are just there in case the car gets stuck. Waymo also discovered that some passengers are more comfortable with a safety driver because the idea of a driverless car makes them nervous. But Waymo has a disengagement rate around 10,000 miles per disengagement so the safety drivers don't have to do much.

I do recall the ads showing people relaxed or happy as ever, even resting. I guess I can't hold it against them for trying to get the public to accept the technology, but that still fed my trust issue with them early on.
 

Daniel in SD

Well-Known Member
Jan 25, 2018
6,851
9,729
San Diego
Waymo only level 2-3 from the start? Not my interpretation from sources like The Verge a couple years back. About the same time they tried to get me to sign an NDA and I declined. Plus, why would they be driving around my neighborhood without driver or passenger, while being rated as the #1 or 2 in Driving Autonomy? Past or present, no matter.
From 2010. At 1:20
Reporter: It's not intended to replace drivers but to help them.
Engineer: It's like, you know, super cruise control.
They changed their mind and decided to pursue only Level 4.
It's because of this Waymos PR campaign, along with other Self-driving companies (media not excluded), that I essentially ONLY trust Tesla with camera data. The battle for FSD dominance was clear to me years ago and it was everyone against Tesla. Trust takes a long time to build back up, and I don't forget. An example of trustworthy behavior was when Elon cut off a presentation on Battery Day to say something like "well, um uh, it's not quite ready... the yield isn't quite there yet but almost."
What's about Waymo's PR campaign do you find so offensive? Everyone seems to be doing the same thing. Testing vehicles and releasing demo videos. People think Waymo is ahead because they've demonstrated more sophisticated self-driving. Many people here think Tesla will catch up quickly.
Presumably Waymo only uses the interior camera to make sure you're not damaging their vehicles! Expecting them not to have interior cameras on robotaxis is crazy. If they ever sell Level 4 vehicles, which I doubt they will do anytime soon, I'm sure the camera will be optional.
I also don't really understand your complaint about NDAs. Tesla certainly has NDAs for all the people working on FSD too.
 
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SOULPEDL

Active Member
Jul 25, 2016
3,404
13,558
Arizona
What's about Waymo's PR campaign do you find so offensive?
Deceptive or political would be a better word, but like I said, I guess I can't blame capitalism at work there. But it started with the NDA as an indication that maybe their public statements could not be trusted completely. Then I saw the blissful ads and I imagined the top pressure stemming from the cost of paying all those drivers $20/hr at Waymo. I'm sure that was a tough reality check. (OT, so with a driver still necessary, how is this making any more money than a passenger van? Boy, I need a refresh and haven't been following much lately.)
 

diplomat33

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Aug 3, 2017
8,165
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Terre Haute, IN USA
Deceptive or political would be a better word, but like I said, I guess I can't blame capitalism at work there. But it started with the NDA as an indication that maybe their public statements could not be trusted completely. Then I saw the blissful ads and I imagined the top pressure stemming from the cost of paying all those drivers $20/hr at Waymo. I'm sure that was a tough reality check. (OT, so with a driver still necessary, how is this making any more money than a passenger van? Boy, I need a refresh and haven't been following much lately.)

Not sure what you mean by deceptive or political. Once Waymo had good FSD, they launched an early access program in Chandler, AZ where they allowed some people to join and provide feedback by riding in their robotaxis with safety drivers. Now, as the FSD has gotten better, they have opened up to the general public and have removed the safety driver from some rides. They are are testing in 25 cities (with no passengers) and will probably launch ride hailing services in those cities once they deem the software good enough to handle everything with no risk.

Waymo is doing some rides with no safety driver. They are just keeping safety drivers for those routes where they think there might still be a risk of an accident. It's just part of Waymo's high safety process since they are carrying passengers in their robotaxis. Personally, I think it's better to play it safe and keep a safety driver perhaps longer than necessary than to have an accident where a passenger gets injured and essentially kill autonomous driving because the public loses all trust in autonomous driving.

The safety driver is still necessary because the FSD is not perfect yet. it is a still a work in progress. But it is the most advanced FSD we have in the world today. No it is not making money yet. But it will once they perfect the FSD and are able to permanently remove the safety driver from all robotaxis.

I have to say, I find it interesting to see Tesla fans being so hard on Waymo for not making money yet or for still needing safety drivers in some rides. Waymo has achieved the best FSD in the world, far better than Tesla or anyone else. What Waymo has achieved so far is a true technological miracle. I don't see anyone else with robotaxis with no safety drivers in them, taking passengers around a city with no accidents. I don't see Tesla with hundreds of cars driving around with no driver in them. But somehow it is not good enough because it is not perfect yet?
 
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Daniel in SD

Well-Known Member
Jan 25, 2018
6,851
9,729
San Diego
Deceptive or political would be a better word, but like I said, I guess I can't blame capitalism at work there. But it started with the NDA as an indication that maybe their public statements could not be trusted completely. Then I saw the blissful ads and I imagined the top pressure stemming from the cost of paying all those drivers $20/hr at Waymo. I'm sure that was a tough reality check. (OT, so with a driver still necessary, how is this making any more money than a passenger van? Boy, I need a refresh and haven't been following much lately.)
I think you're confusing Waymo with Uber...
 
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SOULPEDL

Active Member
Jul 25, 2016
3,404
13,558
Arizona
Not sure what you mean by deceptive or political. Once Waymo had good FSD, they launched an early access program in Chandler, AZ where they allowed some people to join and provide feedback by riding in their robotaxis with safety drivers. Now, as the FSD has gotten better, they have opened up to the general public and have removed the safety driver from some rides. They are are testing in 25 cities (with no passengers) and will probably launch ride hailing services in those cities once they deem the software good enough to handle everything with no risk.

Waymo is doing some rides with no safety driver. They are just keeping safety drivers for those routes where they think there might still be a risk of an accident. It's just part of Waymo's high safety process since they are carrying passengers in their robotaxis. Personally, I think it's better to play it safe and keep a safety driver perhaps longer than necessary than to have an accident where a passenger gets injured and essentially kill autonomous driving because the public loses all trust in autonomous driving.

The safety driver is still necessary because the FSD is not perfect yet. it is a still a work in progress. But it is the most advanced FSD we have in the world today. No it is not making money yet. But it will once they perfect the FSD and are able to permanently remove the safety driver from all robotaxis.

I have to say, I find it interesting to see Tesla fans being so hard on Waymo for not making money yet or for still needing safety drivers in some rides. Waymo has achieved the best FSD in the world, far better than Tesla or anyone else. What Waymo has achieved so far is a true technological miracle. I don't see anyone else with robotaxis with no safety drivers in them, taking passengers around a city with no accidents. I don't see Tesla with hundreds of cars driving around with no driver in them. But somehow it is not good enough because it is not perfect yet?
It's clear ppl in this room think an NDA is fine for controlling the perfect narrative. My opinion.
 

SOULPEDL

Active Member
Jul 25, 2016
3,404
13,558
Arizona
Tesla requires NDA's for the early access program. Companies like to keep what they're working on under wraps until it's released.
But I didn't need an NDA with Tesla yet it is clearly Beta as stated.

Only a few people involved, yes an NDA is essential at first but this was done in public, IMO without reasonable assumption of privacy (or protection, but I'm not a lawyer). Besides, they're not giving away the code by driving around passengers.

I get it people, Marketing decided it too risky if people shared how many times it was stuck in traffic or if the brakes threw them forward by surprise, and then went and shared their fear stories with all their friends. That's how I felt back then, maybe it was misdirected media anger. But Tesla trusted me and it was mutual. So, Tesla fan? Nah... more like a Brother.
 

diplomat33

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2017
8,165
9,711
Terre Haute, IN USA
But I didn't need an NDA with Tesla yet it is clearly Beta as stated.

Only a few people involved, yes an NDA is essential at first but this was done in public, IMO without reasonable assumption of privacy (or protection, but I'm not a lawyer). Besides, they're not giving away the code by driving around passengers.

I get it people, Marketing decided it too risky if people shared how many times it was stuck in traffic or if the brakes threw them forward by surprise, and then went and shared their fear stories with all their friends. That's how I felt back then, maybe it was misdirected media anger. But Tesla trusted me and it was mutual. So, Tesla fan? Nah... more like a Brother.

You didn't need a NDA with Tesla because you were not in the Early Access. You got the software that Tesla released to the general public. Yes, Tesla still calls it "beta" but it was the software released the public, hence no NDA. If you had been in Tesla's Early Access with the pre-release software, you would have needed a NDA too.

Waymo does not have a NDA anymore for the general public. The NDA was only for Early Access before they released the robotaxis to the general public.
 

Daniel in SD

Well-Known Member
Jan 25, 2018
6,851
9,729
San Diego
But I didn't need an NDA with Tesla yet it is clearly Beta as stated.

Only a few people involved, yes an NDA is essential at first but this was done in public, IMO without reasonable assumption of privacy (or protection, but I'm not a lawyer). Besides, they're not giving away the code by driving around passengers.

I get it people, Marketing decided it too risky if people shared how many times it was stuck in traffic or if the brakes threw them forward by surprise, and then went and shared their fear stories with all their friends. That's how I felt back then, maybe it was misdirected media anger. But Tesla trusted me and it was mutual. So, Tesla fan? Nah... more like a Brother.
The Tesla Early Access Program participants test software in public and I think there are a lot of them. The reason for they NDA is exactly as you describe, Tesla marketing doesn't want people talking about features before they're ready for release.
The Waymo One service does not require an NDA. It's also mostly beta, they do have some safety driverless rides.
I have no idea what you're accusing Waymo of doing regarding privacy.
So, you're saying Tesla trusted you with company secrets and didn't force you to sign an NDA? o_O
 

diplomat33

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2017
8,165
9,711
Terre Haute, IN USA
Since this is a Waymo thread, I thought I would share this video. It's from 9 months ago but it does a good job of demonstrating some of Waymo's capabilities. You can see the car is fully driverless and is able to handle a trip from start to finish with no issues.

 

SOULPEDL

Active Member
Jul 25, 2016
3,404
13,558
Arizona
You didn't need a NDA with Tesla because you were not in the Early Access. You got the software that Tesla released to the general public. Yes, Tesla still calls it "beta" but it was the software released the public, hence no NDA. If you had been in Tesla's Early Access with the pre-release software, you would have needed a NDA too.

Waymo does not have a NDA anymore for the general public. The NDA was only for Early Access before they released the robotaxis to the general public.
The Tesla Early Access Program participants test software in public and I think there are a lot of them. The reason for they NDA is exactly as you describe, Tesla marketing doesn't want people talking about features before they're ready for release.
The Waymo One service does not require an NDA.
I have no idea what you're accusing Waymo of doing regarding privacy.
So, you're saying Tesla trusted you with company secrets and didn't force you to sign an NDA? o_O
Reading in too deep. I'm out.
 
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