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Waymo

Discussion in 'Autopilot & Autonomous/FSD' started by Daniel in SD, Oct 5, 2020.

  1. diplomat33

    diplomat33 Well-Known Member

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    You are nitpicking now. That was not phantom braking. It was too gradual.
     
  2. powertoold

    powertoold Active Member

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    Definitely phantom braking, JJRicks even said "ooooo"
     
  3. diplomat33

    diplomat33 Well-Known Member

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    Also, if you pay attention, it was 35 to 30, not 40 to 30. And the rider even says that it was minor phantom braking. It looks worse because he jerked the camera.
     
  4. diplomat33

    diplomat33 Well-Known Member

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    You are still nitpicking IMO. Waymo cars are doing thousands of fully driverless rides every month with no issues in Phoenix but you are want to point out where it unexpectedly slowed down from 23 to 16 mph. :rolleyes:
     
  5. powertoold

    powertoold Active Member

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    I'm not nitpicking. I just pointed out the facts, yet you disagreed that it was phantom braking at all. Car definitely was not coasting, and it was braking for no apparent reason = phantom braking.

    Considering Waymo's technology, phantom braking in simple situations (clear weather, no traffic controls nearby, clear lane lines, no imminent risks) like that with no apparent reason is concerning.
     
  6. JJRicks

    JJRicks Member

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    If I might chime in here, I think I used the wrong word to describe these few occurrences. Phantom braking is a sudden slowdown or stop in response to a 'phantom' object, right? So in that case I'd argue 12:50 in my Remote Assistance takeover video is closer to an honest-to-goodness phantom brake. (I'm a full member now so I can post links right? let's see: Apologies, typing this from mobile so hard to link a timestamp)
    All these other ones are smooth slow downs in reaction to a tangible object. In this last case, I'm pretty sure the person turning left wasn't completely centered in their lane, and it saw someone coming up on the right side so it didn't want to hug the right side of the lane like it usually does. Actual phantom brakes are very few and far between. At least this is my experience as someone with almost 100 Waymo rides under my belt
     
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  7. diplomat33

    diplomat33 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks so much for the reply. I feel like it is good to hear from people who were actually in the Waymo car rather than us "armchair quarterbacks".

    Glad to hear that real phantom braking is rare.

    Thanks again for doing these videos. There are very informative. Plus, I get to live vicariously through them since Waymo is not in my area yet.
     
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  8. powertoold

    powertoold Active Member

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    No phantom object is needed. The braking also doesn't need to be dramatic. Both the instances I pointed out are phantom braking.
     
  9. diplomat33

    diplomat33 Well-Known Member

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    #549 diplomat33, Jan 12, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2021
    Yes, that is the correct definition of "phantom braking".

    EDIT: it is a sudden braking for no reason but not necessarily because of a phantom object.
     
  10. powertoold

    powertoold Active Member

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    Wrong.
     
  11. diplomat33

    diplomat33 Well-Known Member

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    Of course, you need a phantom object. Otherwise, it would be normal braking to avoid a collision.
     
  12. powertoold

    powertoold Active Member

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    You do not need a phantom object. It could be that all objects are perceived appropriately, but the car wrongly predicts some need to brake.
     
  13. diplomat33

    diplomat33 Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
     
  14. powertoold

    powertoold Active Member

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    Yup, when the car applies the brakes for no apparent reason.
     
  15. diplomat33

    diplomat33 Well-Known Member

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    Ok. But a phantom object is usually the most common cause of phantom braking. That's probably what I was thinking about.
     
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  16. powertoold

    powertoold Active Member

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    Most common cause of phantom braking for Autopilot was overhead signs and bridges. The phantom "object" was never really displayed in our visualizations though, so it's inconclusive that there was any phantom "object" that caused the braking.

    Nowadays, Autopilot phantom braking is usually caused by misinterpreting traffic controls. The traffic control is correctly perceived; however, it doesn't apply to the current lane or is misinterpreted (flashing yellows, for example).

    I rarely see phantom braking caused by an actual phantom "object." The only case I've seen recently was from this FSD beta video I believe (FSD beta perceives a ghost car for 0.3 second and brakes for it):

    At 8:38
     
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  17. diplomat33

    diplomat33 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks. That helps.

    Would you say that sudden braking for cars that pass across our path but are no longer directly in front of our car, phantom braking? I would.
     
  18. powertoold

    powertoold Active Member

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    No, because of the definition you posted.
     
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  19. JJRicks

    JJRicks Member

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    In any case, I still feel safe in the vehicles--so much so that I have almost fallen asleep while filming a video--and I think that demonstration of a high level hands-off competency does a lot to ease the nerves. Even if it's technically phantom braking, it's really smooth, and I still get the impression it knows what it's doing. I know it's impossible to convey feeling of acceleration through a video, but I'm dead serious when I say--come out here and try it for yourself! (Would say ride along with me, but it's open to anyone now so meh. Nobody reaches out to ride anymore, it's sad. I liked talking to people in the industry haha) It's honestly an experience like no other, no matter your brand preferences. :)
     
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  20. EVNow

    EVNow Well-Known Member

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    That’s not a nitpick. It’s speculation.

    You know the second part is not true. In any suburb - there are areas with a lot of shops and residential areas. If you want to study a truly representative service you need to cover the most important shopping areas and as much of residential areas as you can.
     

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