We are still a long way from the convenience of gas stations

[EVer Hopeful]

Both are cold AF.

Apparently it's all relative. I heard the James Webb Telescope is going to be one million miles away from Earth, but still has to have cryogenic cooling for the mirror, so that heat radiated from Earth doesn't affect the image

Hard to get your head around that really

I can imagine all the scientists complaining when it gets a software update and the temperature controls get moved to a different screen

 

[CapsEngineer]

Apparently it's all relative. I heard the James Webb Telescope is going to be one million miles away from Earth, but still has to have cryogenic cooling for the mirror, so that heat radiated from Earth doesn't affect the image

Hard to get your head around that really

I can imagine all the scientists complaining when it gets a software update and the temperature controls get moved to a different screen

Should give you an idea of the temps it is seeing.

 

[mociaf9]

Given the title of the thread, I thought that image was going to be about the fact that Webb is apparently 61,507.5 mi from the nearest L2 location.

 

[buffington]

I read the title of this thread and immediately agreed. Then I read the replies, and I'm left wondering why so many people are anti-improvement. It's the same old thing - someone says "this thing about Teslas could be better" and a ton of other people interpret that as "this person is attacking me personally," at least on some level, and suggest the person being critical to leave, unaware of the irony of shooting down the critical thinking. If we all just accepted what we have, we'd never have Tesla.

The title of the thread says it all.

I love my Tesla, and wake up to a full "tank" every morning thanks to my wall charger, and rarely have to think about range.

The moment I have to think about range, ICE wins the convenience game.

In the US, there are very few places where there isn't a gas station well within the range of an ICE car. I've been in some of the most remote, desolate places in the western US, and barely needed to think about range because it's never hard to find a gas station. Not only that, but it's pretty safe to assume that if I go to that gas station, they'll have some grade of fuel that my ICE car can use, and if their tanks are empty, there's bound to be another station close by.

Contrast that with my Model 3 LR. I've literally spent all afternoon today seeing if I'll be able to charge it after driving it to southern Utah, only to determine that I'll be driving an ICE car instead, as much as I don't want to.

Why?

Because working out how to charge it is a combinatorial dumpster fire where everything has to work perfectly to work at all. I need to guarantee that the one super charger 150 miles from my destination can top me off. But then, I can't just drive to my destination even if I top off 150 miles away, because I need to shoot past it by 50 miles so I can get on a charger that, at best, does 20 miles/hr to top up again. That's if I have the right adapters and if I've downloaded the right apps, and put in my CC details, etc. So I can increase the odds that I'll be able to sit for 5 hours to charge after driving for 5 hours. And I'll need that top off session since the work I'll be doing requires that I make a lot of small trips starting from my temporary base. The number of those small trips is also unknown. Sure, I'll have a 110v charger with me, so maybe charging overnight might work, but I can't guarantee that I won't be tripping breakers. I also know there are about 4 other non-Tesla chargers about 75 miles away, but I can't be certain they'll be available, or if they actually exist or even work. There are far too many "ifs" that have no backup plan in that plan.

The plan, if driving an ICE, looks like this: fill up before I go, then fill up as needed.

Wait. No looking at plugshare, or chargepoint, ABRP, or Tesla's route planner? Not even looking up gas stations on google maps? Am I crazy?

Of course not. In the US, if there's a road, there's a gas station within range, with very few exceptions. The one time I can think of where I nearly ran out of gas (and wasn't a poor teenager with a broken fuel gauge) was on a remote stretch in Oregon with a 60MPH headwind that cut my range in half. Still made it to a gas station, despite being stressed the entire way.

Gas stations are so ubiquitous in the US that I can confidently assume that any trip I make will have plenty of access to gas stations.

Guess how many gas stations there are within 150 miles of my destination? I don't have a clue. I don't even need to care. That's how many there are. There might as well be an infinite number of them. When I need one, I'll easily find one.

This statement:

We are still a long way from the convenience of gas stations

is absolutely true, and will remain so until every gas station can charge any EV the same way any gas station can fill up any ICE car. Bonus if it's as fast or faster than filling a tank, but you gotta solve the bigger problem of having chargers in the first place first.

Rather than say "don't like your Tesla? Go back to your ICE" when people complain about poor charging infrastructure, Tesla owners should be demanding that Tesla, the automaker that's pumping out cars faster than any other current automaker and reporting record earnings, fulfill the promise of an actual charging network that competes with gas stations. It's not our problem to solve either - that's what a $3T valuation is good for.

 

[roblab]

Agree, we are still at the ‘cutting edge’ of EV ownership, you need to plan ahead more than with an ICE vehicle. In fact you often need a Plan A and a Plan B if you a heading to areas without much Supercharging.

I imagine this is far worse if you own a non-Tesla EV.

The charging situation should improve drastically over the next 10 years.

But... you never need to plan to "swing by the gas station" as you go from one place to another. My charger is in the garage, and I never had that convenience with a gas car.

Basically, there aren't many things to complain about when driving an EV (I've been using one since 2012), but some folks can still find a way. They forget all the wonderful fun they had pumping gas in freezing weather, getting oil changes, getting gas on their shoes or pants, or, the most fun of all, having your car catch fire!!!!

With a little forethought the whole EV picture gets much brighter, to the point where some of us hope never to drive another gas car in our lives.

 

[Allx]

is absolutely true, and will remain so until every gas station can charge any EV the same way any gas station can fill up any ICE car. Bonus if it's as fast or faster than filling a tank, but you gotta solve the bigger problem of having chargers in the first place first.

Agreed . Maybe if others did like Germany and pass a law that all gas stations need a charger . Might not always help speed but could prevent getting stranded .

I love my p3d and would never change it for ICE but I have to say that when i have to start planning in detail , I do get a little grumpy because I’m reminded that while we’re getting there , we’ve got some more to go and because of that I can’t simply tell friends or family “dive in , it’s *all* upside”. Looking forward to the day there’s no use case discussion .
That being said , I do think that for many people’s use case , they’ll be better off with home charging , they’ll never see a downside and never look back.

 

[EVer Hopeful]

I read the title of this thread and immediately agreed. [snip]

Yes but that's exactly what people said 100+ years ago except it was oats instead of gas, gas instead of electricity, horses in stead of ICE and ICE instead of EV

Give it time and (hopefully) EV charging will (soon) be as ubiquitous as gas pumps

...I say hopefully because EVs are as certain to replace ICE vehicles as ICE vehicles were to replace horses (and trains). We as a country just have a choice: do we lead this market, or do we just hand it over to someone else? (beginning with the letter C)


And this isn't the first time: Is anyone making vehicles running on leaded gasoline anymore?

 

[Merrill]

I will never go back to an ICE, I do not mind planning my trip around charging love no maintenance needed, love not supporting the fossil fuel industry, to me it is worth a little extra work to own a BEV.
We have a few towns in Sonoma county that are not allowing anymore gas stations to be built.

 

[EVer Hopeful]

In some ways, it's sort of fun to plan a trip. It's a little like flight planning

I'm actually thinking of making up some forms to do it properly ... and finding my knee board (only half joking there)

 

[buffington]

Give it time and (hopefully) EV charging will (soon) be as ubiquitous as gas pumps

I agree. That time could come sooner if consumers stopped being so dogmatic about their praise for EVs and started demanding better infrastructure.

And this isn't the first time: Is anyone making vehicles running on leaded gasoline anymore?

And we'd still be using leaded gas if the automakers had their way. US congress passed the Clean Air Act in 1970, giving the EPA the authority to regulate things like gasoline. But it took 26 years before leaded fuel was banned, and automakers fought the impending ban every step of the way because the ban, which required more complicated and expensive engines, threatened their earnings.

Tesla isn't much different than any other publicly traded company when it comes to earnings. Earnings are the top priority, despite the stated mission of the company. It's only when earnings are at risk that companies change positions. Tesla invested heavily in rolling out super chargers in their early days because without them, the inconvenience of charging their cars far outweighed most of the benefits of buying their cars, which put their earnings at risk.

Now there's just enough charging infrastructure that for most customers the inconvenience of charging isn't an issue any more. Which means more people buy Teslas and earnings stay on track.

That's because most customers, myself included, enjoy all the benefits of the EV without much downside. We charge at home, and drive far less per day than the total range of the cars. I'm not disputing that reality in any way.

What I'm saying is that the thread's premise is still true. I can't wait until it's no longer true, but dismissing it as a complaint, and telling those who repeat it to leave doesn't get anyone closer to a reality when EVs, and EV ownership and usage, are better in every single possible way than ICE cars.

 

[buffington]

Basically, there aren't many things to complain about when driving an EV (I've been using one since 2012), but some folks can still find a way. They forget all the wonderful fun they had pumping gas in freezing weather,

There's little difference between plugging in a super charger in freezing weather than putting a gas pump nozzle in your ICE car, aside from the extra time needed to swipe a payment card.

getting oil changes, getting gas on their shoes or pants, or, the most fun of all, having your car catch fire!!!!

Oil changes suck, as do all the other routine maintenance tasks that the complexity of an ICE requires - no argument there. But gas on shoes or pants? I've been driving ICE cars for 30 years, and I've never once had that problem.

Of the 10+ ICE vehicles I've owned in that time, they caught fire as often as all the EVs I've owned: exactly zero times. Two of my ICE cars were also completely destroyed due to collisions, (one got sandwiched between a semi-truck and a wall while parked, the other was stolen and flipped head over heels during a high speed chase). Neither caught fire.

I'm assuming that you believe that ICE cars catch fire more frequently then EVs. I'd like to believe that too. But the data doesn't support that belief.

If you dig for stats, you'll find that most news articles suggest that EVs are far less likely to catch fire than ICE cars. They'll say that for every 100k ICE cars sold, 1500 catch fire, compared to 25 EV cars per 100k sold. Tesla reports that there's one fire per Tesla for every 205 million miles driven (compared to one fire per every 19 million miles driven by ICE cars).

The problem with those articles, however, is that their source is more often than not AutoInsuranceEZ's report. That report pulled data from NTSB, BTS (Bureau of Transportation Statistics), and recalls.gov.

The NTSB data is derived from a report by NFPA (the same report Tesla uses for 2020 data), which doesn't distinguish between EV fires and ICE fires. That report says:

"While hybrid and electric vehicles have become more common, existing data collection systems have not yet adequately captured the frequency of fires involving these specific vehicles."

You have to estimate the breakdown using sales reporting from automakers.

Long story short: the data we have about ICE vs. EV fires is limited. The data we do have can tell very different stories depending on how you compare that data. When compared to every make, model, and year for the past 20 years, there are fewer EV fires per miles driven or cars sold. All ICE cars sold in 2020 compared to all Chevy Bolts suggests that EV fires are far more likely than ICE fires. Comparing new ICE cars to EVs sold in the past ten years, the numbers suggest there's little difference in ICE vs. EV fires.

Vehicle fires, across the board, have become far less frequent in new cars, whether they're ICE or EV.

 

[Rocky_H]

I notice you are coming from your own narrow perspective, though, with an unannounced assumption.

This statement:

We are still a long way from the convenience of gas stations

is absolutely true,

OK, granted it's true, but not how you were thinking. A long way in which direction? More or less convenient?

WHEN TRAVELING:
Gas is more convenient.

WHEN NOT TRAVELING:
Electric is more convenient.

So yes, a "long way" in either direction.

I noticed that you were only evaluating it for the traveling scenario. Is out of town traveling what the majority of people use their cars for the majority of the time? (rhetorical question) No, it isn't. And so for the majority of people's use, electric cars are more convenient. I certainly grant that EVs have that problem factor on some trips. I've certainly had noticeable problems and frustrations from it on some trips. But it's reasonable (in some people's eyes) to get more convenience most of the time for worse convenience less of the time.

 

[ThomasD]

Every once in a while I see a Tesla when I go into Elizabethtown. There is a Nissan Leaf near me. But other than that I just don't see that many electric vehicles where I live.

 

[buffington]

I notice you are coming from your own narrow perspective, though, with an unannounced assumption.

Unannounced assumption? With all due respect, I'm not quite sure what that even means, especially since I'm pretty sure this is what you'd call a clearly "announced" assumption:

The moment I have to think about range, ICE wins the convenience game.

I never said "ICE cars are, in every situation, more convenient than EVs." I very much narrowed my perspective so that I could very deliberately compare how ICE cars are more convenient given a very specific scenario, one in which ICE cars excel in.

I noticed that you were only evaluating it for the traveling scenario.

Exactly. That doesn't mean I don't find the car convenient for other scenarios. I point out, several times, how convenient EVs are for certain reasons, like:

I love my Tesla, and wake up to a full "tank" every morning thanks to my wall charger, and rarely have to think about range.

I still stand by my assertion that, all things considered, ICE cars are more convenient, not because they burn gasoline, but because the energy source they use is simply everywhere and its delivery methods are standardized.

The day that the same sort of thing exists for EVs is the day when the debate ends. We'll remember how gas stations used to sell gasoline the way we remember how there used to be pay phones everywhere, or how our phones used to have cords, or how we used to have see when our favorite show would be broadcast, etc, etc.

That day only comes, though, when the consumer demand for it threatens the earnings of companies currently profiting off of leaving things the way they are.

 

[Merrill]

That is the problem with our society, we look for the easy way out and how much money we can make. How about doing something good for society even if it is not as convenient.

 

[Rocky_H]

I still stand by my assertion that, all things considered, ICE cars are more convenient, not because they burn gasoline, but because the energy source they use is simply everywhere and its delivery methods are standardized.

And there you go again. Let's parse this:

all things considered, ICE cars are more convenient,

ICE cars are more convenient in the minority portion of the year when people are traveling. They are less convenient in the majority portion of the year, when you are not traveling. See? That does figure into the "all things considered". At least I consider what the majority of my use of a product is going to be.

because the energy source they use is simply everywhere

It is not everywhere. It is not in my garage at my house where I already am and do not have to go somewhere to get it.

I have already acknowledged that ICE is more convenient while traveling, but your attempts to assert that it's also more convenient daily use around town just don't seem realistic to me. Just last night, my wife and I were driving our gas car back home from a volleyball game, and I noticed the gas gauge was uncomfortably low. Instead of just getting home and plugging in, I asked my wife if she would mind if we delayed getting home for a bit to go to a gas station to fill up before heading home. It was added inconvenience because of being a gas car.

 

[bruce4000]

Returning from trip, needed to refill rental before airport. Pulled into gas station, and half the pumps had bags over them. Started to use unbagged pump and locked my credit card in the reader and then went back to start screen. Tried a couple of times and wife had to go in and talk to the attendant. Finally unlocked my card so I could get it out and tried again and worked this time.
Made me long for Tesla where I just plug the car in and away it goes!

 

[ElectricIAC]

Returning from trip, needed to refill rental before airport. Pulled into gas station, and half the pumps had bags over them. Started to use unbagged pump and locked my credit card in the reader and then went back to start screen. Tried a couple of times and wife had to go in and talk to the attendant. Finally unlocked my card so I could get it out and tried again and worked this time.
Made me long for Tesla where I just plug the car in and away it goes!

Solution:
Rent a Tesla next time.

 

[gnuarm]

Returning from trip, needed to refill rental before airport. Pulled into gas station, and half the pumps had bags over them. Started to use unbagged pump and locked my credit card in the reader and then went back to start screen. Tried a couple of times and wife had to go in and talk to the attendant. Finally unlocked my card so I could get it out and tried again and worked this time.
Made me long for Tesla where I just plug the car in and away it goes!

Until the day they cut you off because they feel like it.

 

[ZenRockGarden]

My MYLR was running a little low on electrons tonight. I could have made it to Sunday when I typically refill at a favorite lunch spot, but I like to have some extra range for whatever might come up.

So on the way back from Dance Camp with my daughter we went thru the Starbucks drive-thru, got a couple small drinks, then rolled a few blocks to the nearby supercharger station (16 stalls, 10 of which were open). We plugged in and sipped our beverages for 12 minutes while charging from 21% to 54% for a cost of $8.34 We were relaxed and delighted with our brief stop. A nearby Tesla owner inquired about our blue rimblades protecting our 20" wheels - we gave a reference for where to find them.

There was a Shell station across the street where lines of grumpy SUV's jockeyed to get their turn at $100 loads of stinky dino juice. I timed them - they were averaging 7 minutes from entering the station to getting back on the street. They did not look relaxed or delighted.