We Aren’t Saving the Earth Like People Think When Buying an EV.

[jerry33]

Electric cars do two major things:

1) Get cleaner as the energy sources gets cleaner.

2) Don't pollute where people breathe regardless of what the source of electricity is. A high percentage of electric vehicles would really reduce urban healthcare costs because the rates of asthma and similar lung problems would plummet. And of course it's easier to control pollution from a single source than it is from a million sources--only the political will is needed.

Bear in mind that ICE cars start out as clean as they will ever be and get worse as they age. Overall the oil today is dirtier than the oil of fifty years ago because a lot of the easy to process (clean) oil is gone. Tar Sands oil is especially dirty. ICE cars also have lubrication fluids that need to be dealt with every few thousand miles and catalytic converters are not exactly environmentally friendly after their life is finished. And once you've driven electric for a while, even the cleanest ICE stinks.

 

[rhumbliner]

You can pick nitpick details omitted, but the overall picture is that CO2 emissions are in the same ballpark.

Ok, I like to nitpick details.

I would agree with some of your argument, but since you included distribution losses for electricity, you shouldn't omit transmission and refining costs of petroleum. Raw crude has to be transported to the refinery and the refined fuel has to be transported to retail outlets. The refining process is energy intensive as well. Ancillary costs would include the damage done to our roads by a steady stream of heavy fuel trucks. These costs are not insignificant.

Let's also take into account where these emissions occur. ICE's pollute right in the heart of our population centers while fossil fuel fired plants are, mostly, located far from these centers. I certainly don't condone this as an excuse to pollute, but during our transition to renewable energy we should also try to minimize the health-related costs of that pollution.

I think the real environmental advantage of EV's occurs once our utilities switch over to wind, solar, and hydroelectric power -- which is gradually happening. While in Jackson, my EV is powered by hydroelectric energy from the Bonneville Power Administration and here in Vegas my power is a mix of hydro-electric (Hoover dam) and coal-fired plants. And NV Energy is installing large solar arrays to produce energy. I can't take advantage of that with an ICE, but I can with an EV.

 

[K-MTG]

It is disingenuous to use an intentionally derogatory and hostile term like "treehugger" without giving a definition of treehugger. I guess you can call me a treehugger because I walk several miles a day, I ride a bicycle when appropriate, I am adamantly opposed to artificial turf, I plant lots of drought tolerant green stuff around my house, I rarely use the dish washer and wash by hand, I partially power my PHEV with Solar City roof panels while patiently waiting for my TM3, and made a lifelong professional career in a treehugger profession. So yeah, I'm proud to be an "extreme" treehugger. No, I don't believe that I am saving the earth, but I do believe I am attempting to be part of the solution rather than part of the problem. Changing attitudes and an entire culture is incremental not an immediate absolute. To call people an extreme anything when compared to the So Called President is insulting!

Now besides driving an EV (and by your definition not saving the earth for YOUR future generations), how are you doing your part while living in your glass house?

"Tree huggers" calling Trump the "So Called President " is disingenuous and insulting. So you just knocked K-MTG and then did it yourself. Sorry, truth.

Anyone who thinks a Tesla was made w/o an impact to the environment is ignorant of reality.

Apologies for using the words "treehugger" & "Trump". I didn't intend to offend anyone...I watched to many videos of Colbert. And no, I don't view you as a "treehugger".

 

[Zero CO2]

I agree with the original post to the extent that driving an EV alone will not be sufficient to reduce CO2 emissions to a level that will mitigate human caused climate change ... in fact not driving at all would be the best answer ; however, that is not realistic for most citizens.

One of the primary sectors of the economy where significant reduction in emissions can be had is transportation and to the extent that your power company generates electricity from renewable sources or you generate your own (e.g. solar) you will not be at zero emissions from an life cycle perspective by driving an EV.

Here is one life cycle study that seems to indicate that from the cradle to grave a BEV emits 50% less CO2 over its useful life than an equivalent ICE.

Gasoline vs Electric—Who Wins on Lifetime Global Warming Emissions? We Found Out

So driving a Tesla or other EV does not eliminate CO2 emissions it does reduce it significantly vs ICE , if you really want to save the planet ....encourage people to walk

PS: I think I have to change my screen name after this post 50% less CO2

 

[SageBrush]

Ok, I like to nitpick details.

No problem, I do too

I would agree with some of your argument, but since you included distribution losses for electricity, you shouldn't omit transmission and refining costs of petroleum.

The 25 lbs per gallon CO2 for petrol includes these items you mention. That is why I mentioned it is a well to wheel (WtW) number. Just the final combustion is about 19 lbs per gallon. If you curious about the contribution of tar sands to the petroleum carbon intensity, this article is nice reading.

 

[ohmman]

encourage people to walk

Cycling is markedly more efficient than walking. And of course, the fuel source matters, so being a vegetarian or vegan will improve this even more.

Note that I'm neither, but that's how the numbers break down.

 

[SageBrush]

And once you've driven electric for a while, even the cleanest ICE stinks.

I bought a Prius Prime while waiting for a Model 3, and it does not stink. In fact, it is a superb car. I will say though that the occasional ICE revving as the car switches between ICE and EV mode is easily my least appreciated aspect of the car.

The peace and quiet of EV driving is hard to give up.

 

[SageBrush]

Cycling is markedly more efficient than walking.

Sort of true, but note that the road cost in not included in the cycling accounting.

 

[Xenoilphobe]

This topic was prompted by someone I met with an EV making snotty remarks about ICE cars and how they are polluting the earth. I suggested he do more research about how his own EV is built and runs.

Yea, this will make some people upset who think our EVs are perfect alternatives to ICE cars on the environment. As much as I like to think my Tesla is a perfect alternative, I am a realist.

While our Teslas are much better at reducing pollution and waste, I’m not one to brag about it. Consider about 30% of the electricity generated in USA to charge the cars is made by coal-powered plants (over twice the number of Wind, solar, and hydro plants combined), and the 20% of nuclear plants to generate the electricity will make waste that will be radioactive for thousands of years. And while roughly 30% of electricity is from natural gas plants that are cleaner than coal, they still pollute.

But then there is pollution that goes into making the car; diesel equipment mining and processing the Lithium, factories that smelt and create all the aluminum and steel, oils from the plastics, and factories to create all the other components of fabric, electronics, wiring, and on and on. Then there are the toxic chemicals to create the computer chips and many other components. Maybe as bad as making an ICE car.

So I hope folks keep in mind when creating that custom license plate of “No Waste”, “No CO2” or whatever, then you are just denying reality. The reason I bought the car is because I like it. I don’t think I am helping to save the earth. Yea, it is a lot better alternative to ICE, but not pollution free.

The good news is that as we switch to higher percentages of clean sources for energy generation, the numbers work in our favor.

I try and stay away from the extremes - most of the time they are wrong - and many times too busy talking and not listening. I have fallen victim to this and thankfully my kids reel me back in from becoming "mono-visioned" on many topics.

My favorite conversation with a Tesla owner was how they are saving the environment to drive to Florida from the DC area to go on a cruise ship for ten days... I quietly listened and made no comment about the 150 tons of diesel they were about to burn on the cruise ship PER HOUR and the logistics to feed, clean and staff a 6000 person event. That works out to 2800 gallons per hour! or ~ 700,000 gallons of dirty diesel (they don't use the low sulfur stuff in these boats).

There is no single solution, in frankly if we keep it up the population will reduce on it's own. Here is great study done by Uncle Sam - reads like something out of the Bible - Revelations.

 

[ohmman]

Sort of true, but note that the road cost in not included in the cycling accounting.

What road?

Seriously, though, most commute walking is done on some sort of pavement as well.

 

[T34ME]

Cycling is markedly more efficient than walking. And of course, the fuel source matters, so being a vegetarian or vegan will improve this even more.

No argument that cycling is more efficient than walking, but according to my impression the medical profession gives walking, in totality, more physically healthy benefits than cycling, but they're both better than nothing. And even eating an occasional green salad rather than that Rib-eye does contribute some incremental benefit to reducing personal carbon footprint. Every little bit helps, so keep buying those EV's.

One of my cycle rides is a Rain City Chopper (chopper bicycle). I clothes pin playing cards in the rear spokes to make a simulated chopper sound or simply go "vroom, vroom" as I pedal.

I bought a Prius Prime while waiting for a Model 3, and it does not stink. In fact, it is a superb car. I will say though that the occasional ICE revving as the car switches between ICE and EV mode is easily my least appreciated aspect of the car.

I drive a Prius Plug-in, the slightly less efficient forerunner of the Prius Prime. I have never experienced engine revving when switching between EV and ICE. Might be time for a chat with the service department.

 

[Zero CO2]

I try and stay away from the extremes - most of the time they are wrong - and many times too busy talking and not listening. I have fallen victim to this and thankfully my kids reel me back in from becoming "mono-visioned" on many topics.

My favorite conversation with a Tesla owner was how they are saving the environment to drive to Florida from the DC area to go on a cruise ship for ten days... I quietly listened and made no comment about the 150 tons of diesel they were about to burn on the cruise ship PER HOUR and the logistics to feed, clean and staff a 6000 person event. That works out to 2800 gallons per hour! or ~ 700,000 gallons of dirty diesel (they don't use the low sulfur stuff in these boats).

There is no single solution, in frankly if we keep it up the population will reduce on it's own. Here is great study done by Uncle Sam - reads like something out of the Bible - Revelations.

Did anyone send the linked report to POTUS

 

[SageBrush]

I drive a Prius Plug-in, the slightly less efficient forerunner of the Prius Prime. I have never experienced engine revving when switching between EV and ICE. Might be time for a chat with the service department.

I don't know if the programming has changed between generations but the Prime tries very hard to be an EV in hybrid mode. This often leads to drops in the battery SoC to levels that prompt ICE revving to replenish. It is a rare occurrence in highway driving but daily in about-town driving.

 

[SageBrush]

Seriously, though, most commute walking is done on some sort of pavement as well.

It is in the US, but you can walk on dry earth about as efficiently as you can walk on pavement, but the same is not nearly as true for a bicycle.

I'm not arguing against bicycles in any form or fashion -- I think they are one of the greatest inventions, EVER. Just pointing out that the efficiency studies are not a fair comparison of lifecycle use emissions.

Now, excuse me while I finish eating my vegan burrito (really). It is delicious and my most pressing priority.

 

[T34ME]

My favorite conversation with a Tesla owner was how they are saving the environment to drive to Florida from the DC area to go on a cruise ship for ten days... I quietly listened and made no comment about the 150 tons of diesel they were about to burn on the cruise ship PER HOUR and the logistics to feed, clean and staff a 6000 person event. That works out to 2800 gallons per hour! or ~ 700,000 gallons of dirty diesel (they don't use the low sulfur stuff in these boats).

Your selective culling of the facts leaves the wrong impression. You are using the outliers for examples.

I am a frequent cruiser, therefore "el crucero." The average cruise ship burns about 1,100 gallons per hour with total passengers (including crew) of about 3000 people. That works out to less than 1/3 gallon per hour per person which is a lot better than driving an ICE car or flying. California is now requiring low sulfur fuels to be used much to the chagrin of the cruise industry. I can't speak for other States or countries. I suppose that will change with new EPA policies but Governor Brown says no, he is going to RESIST. Like many things, the newest cruise ships are more fuel efficient, with new technologies, because they are better for the industry's bottom line. The article you cited does not give a complete picture but intended to enforce and justify a preconceived idea.

 

[SageBrush]

That works out to less than 1/3 gallon per hour per person which is a lot better than driving an ICE car or flying.

hmm. So about 8 gallons a day per person. You would have to drive your Prius plug-in about 450 miles* a day to match the ship CO2 emissions.

;-)

*Diesel CO2 emissions are about 13% higher per volume than petrol.

 

[Carl]

Cycling is markedly more efficient than walking. And of course, the fuel source matters, so being a vegetarian or vegan will improve this even more.

Note that I'm neither, but that's how the numbers break down.

I remember reading a paper defending the thesis that riding an e-bike is even more environmentally friendly, because each kWh used by the battery of the bike itself can be charged by solar whereas the same kWh consumed by our body will require consuming agricultural products for a 'recharge' .

To reply to the OP and the title of this thread: I don't think anyone on this forum thinks she or he is "saving the planet by driving a Tesla" - and for sure people who don't drive an EV don't think that either, and when you tell them you drive a Tesla, they will not respond with "wow! you're saving the planet" but rather with "well you need gas or coal to make electricity so what's the difference!".

But:
- as we know, driving an EV is probably around 50% better in terms of CO2 than driving an ICE (and even if it were only 30% better, that would still be good);
- I know a lot of Tesla drivers who have become a lot more ecology-conscious after having bought their Tesla (installing solar panels etc. - and even eating less meat!), and that includes myself;
- for sure, independently of CO2, our cars are not emitting dangerous substances at 8:00am at school gates, or at 8:30am in city centers, to be inhaled by our children and those who are walking or cycling to their work. One can deny that human-induced CO2 warming up the earth is a problem (and apparently some still do deny that) but nobody can reasonably deny that our cities would be a lot more liveable without all those exhaust fumes !

 

[jerry33]

I bought a Prius Prime while waiting for a Model 3, and it does not stink. In fact, it is a superb car. I will say though that the occasional ICE revving as the car switches between ICE and EV mode is easily my least appreciated aspect of the car.

The peace and quiet of EV driving is hard to give up.

I was referring to the exhaust from the ICE vehicles around you, not the one you are driving. That one never smells because after about two weeks your brain filters out smells that it always encounters, so that it can alert you to changing situations.

 

[Peteybabes]

can't wait until gigafactory is up and running 100%. that will mean battery production will go down to probably 80%+ no fuel used in production. (mining and extracting the Lithium would be the only fossil fuels used likely, although some mining machines are electric)

 

[Chopr147]

Like Tesla on Youtube put out a video today on just this topic. Plenty of stats in there for the nitpickers