Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Website wait times for delivery change

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
I tend to think that it's 'all of the above'. Factory shut down for the holidays, increase in X production (which decreases S production), Filling back up the NA pipeline, and prioritizing other deliveries besides NA.

We all knew that the short wait times in NA were artificial due to Tesla trying to make their numbers for Q4. This is somewhat a reversion to the norm. Good news for us investors unless it has to do with a slowdown in production (which seems unlikely).
 
Exactly. X orders from February 2012. S orders from yesterday. Who is owed a car more?
I think January will be maybe 80% production of X and then 70-80% in February.
There is no reason to blow out all X at the same time and stop S production nor to go 50/50. But January probably will be very heavy X. It may be confusing to analysts (whether watching wait times or otherwise). But makes perfect sense to focus on one car at a time and get to a blended production line process eventually. Or in Tesla time "soon". Having a lot of X hitting the roads at the same time also looks good and changes the interest profile. It can be slightly dangerous in that people may stop ordering S and get in line for X and that means a possible drop off in S order backlog while this occurs. Think of it as a form of adoption "wave" occurring. Sort of a "S was yesterday, X is today" mindset when the analysts look at how things are going. Remember that Musk also said to the press that he thought Model X would sell better than the Model S so in doing Q1 heavy Model X, it can look this way to the general public and also introduce new demand for Model X buyers who were not even on the fence yet and will be drawn into the fervor.
 
If the wait time change is indeed a product of Tesla projecting a higher percentage of X's in the production mix, that will be a massive factor in getting to cash flow positive in Q1. ASP could be what, $120k, with all delivered X's being P90D's? They also need to add about 2,000 S's back into the pipeline if they meet production and delivery guidance in Q4, as well as get X's out to showrooms. Q1 will be extremely interesting.
 
I fully understand your example. In order to see why it can't explain what just happened to the NA MS order wait time, you need to work through the numbers in my calc. Either I am making a math mistake somewhere, or there is something unusual going on... This is a real puzzler.

I don't see the puzzle.

The factory will be producing the last Model S cars to be delivered for this quarter until new year. Then in January they need to build the backlog for a full quarter of deliveries in countries outside of NA. That's 3000-4000 cars. At a rate of 1200-1500/week 3 weeks. They need to fill the pipeline again, approximately 2000 cars or another 1-2 weeks. Total of 4 weeks. They need to build some X models, let's say 2 weeks of production mixed in there. So that's 6 weeks from January first before they can start building a model S ordered today. One week to build, one week to deliver and we are at the end of February. No need to assume a surge of orders to even get there.
 
Every time we projected that orders went through the roofs, we had to come down. Let's not speculate and go overboard with the change in wait time. This pattern happens every end of quarter more or less.

From end of October till date, average VIN assignment per week has been 1050 cars. It came down from 1200 average in September & October.
 
Every time we projected that orders went through the roofs, we had to come down. Let's not speculate and go overboard with the change in wait time. This pattern happens every end of quarter more or less.

From end of October till date, average VIN assignment per week has been 1050 cars. It came down from 1200 average in September & October.

If you are right, how do they get to a min of 17 K deliveries for the 4th quarter ?
 
My calculation based on VIN assignments for q4 is like this..

1200x9 =10800
1050x4 = 4200

I don't see how they produce more than 15k model s. To get to 17k, they will empty the pipes, sell inventory and a few Xs.

You will be proven right or wrong within 2 weeks...and by early February on the next CC Elon will provide further proof of the quality and soundness behind your estimates.

It will be binary, in your case !
 
Here are VIN assignments in order from the Model S orders spreadsheet. What I've done is found weekly rate and then averaged them out. Surprisingly, September & October averages precise 1200/week. All of the data used here are cars to be delivered in Q4.

1044609/1/20151320
1051179/4/2015
1063509/8/20151890
1064779/9/2015
1057339/9/2015
1064989/10/2015
1071499/14/2015799
1073949/15/2015
1068319/15/2015
1078639/17/2015
1078849/18/2015
1083199/19/2015
1084199/19/2015
1083579/19/2015
1085699/20/2015
1084099/20/2015
1086489/20/2015
1085679/21/20151418
1077939/22/2015
1087539/22/2015
1093969/25/2015
1093869/25/2015
1097639/27/2015
1029969/28/2015
1101849/28/20151617
1100609/28/2015
1098169/28/2015
1102079/29/2015
1105229/30/2015
11072710/1/2015
11083510/2/2015
11123310/4/20151049
11182010/9/2015
11190010/10/2015
11196210/10/2015729
11269810/14/2015
11274510/15/2015783
11292110/17/2015
11325810/19/2015,
11347610/20/2015

11387110/22/2015

11388010/22/20151135
11460010/26/2015
11478410/27/2015
11512910/31/20151249
11583011/5/2015
11596311/5/2015834
11599111/9/2015
11627311/8/2015
11637111/10/2015
11645111/8/2015
11685011/11/2015
11688211/11/2015919
11723311/15/2015
11725211/15/2015
11741911/17/2015
11754011/18/2015658
11802111/20/2015
11828811/22/2015
11833711/23/2015
11842511/24/2015
11844011/23/2015
11847611/24/2015
11864311/26/20151103
11873211/27/2015
11875211/27/2015
11895911/30/2015
11901611/30/2015
11916312/1/2015
11916612/1/2015
11926112/1/2015
11964612/2/2015
11969312/2/20151050
11985512/4/2015
12005212/7/2015
12026612/9/2015573
12132012/12/2015
12132712/11/2015
12132912/11/2015
12229412/16/20152028
 
Pgo's data is good. some of us have done that for a couple years to understand the overall vin # assignment profile. Vin #s are a bit weird. August 2014 included a bunch of Vin #s that turned into other Vin #s when people jumped from RWD Model S to the D orders in Oct/Nov. 2014 had about 5500 Vin #s more than produced. That delta will be less in 2015. Sept 2015 shows Musk's statement about "more S around the time of the X reveal" but many of them came in early Sept and reveal was Sept 29. There was discussion elsewhere about end of year inventory production (ie. the Denmark 2500) and some presume that included pre-assignment of those. It's actually more linear if you average out August/Sept/October.
Vin_Assignments_2014_2015.jpg
 
To make it more fun, it's now 'late February' in NA for all models.

It is becoming apparent that each update to the wait time in NA is due to Tesla becoming more comfortable with X production. It seems that the 'least lucky supplier' (as Elon called it) has been doing fairly well, and the more the X ramps up, the later they push the wait times.

It can't be because demand in NA shot up that quickly.
 
Last edited:
Even forgetting the MX numbers, the reason the EU numbers will have moved out to March and stayed there (and likely soon to be joined by NA) is because they are now making and will continue to make through all of January (mostly) cars for overseas markets. These take around 1-2 months to ship after they are produced. So it makes sense that EU would fall back to March very quickly and then just sit there, because cars for that market isn't being made until now. So they can still afford to take in orders for March and make that deadline likely up until the end of January (assuming no extra backlog). So all the EU dates told us, was that Tesla stopped caring about that market for Q4 and wanted to make their targets.

NA will likely be close behind since they will likely be trying to get all the wait times back on even footing all over again. So this means that if you order a car for NA you are going to be behind all those EU orders that were put off so they could focus on NA in Q4.

About the VIN assignments, PGO, you also should keep in mind that VIN assignments are inclusive of ROW numbers and there is no way to exclude them. Yes, your chart removes them from being shown, but a lot of the gaps are still there. This is part of what makes using VIN assignments/deliveries for estimations so difficult. About all it will tell you is *maybe* the weekly order rate, but then when those cars actually get delivered is a whole other thing. But you can't tell if those orders are a surge in any one market. But you are skewing your data by picking delivery dates on your chart instead of order dates. If you want to show order rates, you should instead focus on order dates as that will likely be a slightly different number. As it stands, what your spreadsheet shows is very skewed data because the gaps in the VINs are inclusive of overseas orders, yet were targeted at EOY delivery dates for NA. At least if I am understanding your comments correctly. If that is order dates then of course you also have an issue where you don't know the split of orders by market.

I want to read the VIN tea leaves as much as anyone, but it is important to understand the limitations of these numbers. Truth is, we don't know if Tesla made their numbers or not. They might have been short, they might be healthily over... it might even be a blowout quarter with 53k+ deliveries (unlikely), we just don't know, and will have to wait until January ~3rd to find out.
 
Agreed chicken.. VINs don't show complete picture, but do show how Tesla production ramp is since all recognized VINs after assignments enter into production soon. There may be outliers and not having such data for ROW and less so from EU makes it difficult to interpret.
 
I don't see the puzzle.

The factory will be producing the last Model S cars to be delivered for this quarter until new year. Then in January they need to build the backlog for a full quarter of deliveries in countries outside of NA. That's 3000-4000 cars. At a rate of 1200-1500/week 3 weeks. They need to fill the pipeline again, approximately 2000 cars or another 1-2 weeks. Total of 4 weeks. They need to build some X models, let's say 2 weeks of production mixed in there. So that's 6 weeks from January first before they can start building a model S ordered today. One week to build, one week to deliver and we are at the end of February. No need to assume a surge of orders to even get there.

Not sure why don't you see it, the puzzle is most definitely there. There are two problems with your example.

First, I agree that Tesla will try to fill the pipeline but it will happen over several quarters, not as you suggest within Q1, because it means delivering 2000 less cars that produced in Q1, the quarter for which there is the guidance for positive cash flow - this is just not going to happen. But more importantly, filling the pipeline means the opposite of what you are suggesting in the example. It means mixing NA cars in the beginning of the quarter with the overseas cars and mixing overseas cars with NA cars during the second half of the quarter, bringing production allocation in line with the incoming rate of orders from each geographical area, rather than front loading first half of the quarter with over seas cars, and back loading second half of the quarter with NA cars.

The second problem is that you are assuming that MX production will reduce MS production to zero. Given the total average production guidance of up to 1800 cars/week and current MS production rate of 1200 cars/week, MX production will need to scale up to more than 600 cars/week before it STARTS to affect MS production, and to full 1800 cars/week before the MS production will have to be really diminished. None of this could possibly happen 5 weeks after the update of NA wait time, i.e. by the third week of January.

So I do not see how this example explains the situation with NA wait time moving out by 8+ weeks within the span of one week.
 
Last edited:
Not sure why don't you see it, the puzzle is most definitely there. There are two problems with your example.

First, I agree that Tesla will try to fill the pipeline but it will happen over several quarters, not as you suggest within Q1, because it means delivering 2000 less cars that produced in Q1, the quarter for which there is the guidance for positive cash flow - this is just not going to happen. But more importantly, filling the pipeline means the opposite of what you are suggesting in the example. It means mixing NA cars in the beginning of the quarter with the overseas cars and mixing overseas cars with NA cars during the second half of the quarter, bringing production allocation in line with the incoming rate of orders from each geographical area, rather than front loading first half of the quarter with over seas cars, and back loading second half of the quarter with NA cars.

Thanks for explaining your thoughts. However, I would come to a different reasoning here: If we assume that any production of Model S from mid-November onwards was diverted to NA, wouldn't it makes sense to fill only(!) orders for Europe / Asia now? In other words, there must be some orders + loaners + demo cars etc. that are urgently required in EU+Asia now. So if we assume that about 1.5 months of orders from outside NA are "backlogged" then it makes sense - in my mind - that order/delivery times in NA jump by approximately 2 months as soon as they "switch" production to non NA cars.

Mid-Q1 you could then start to maintain a somewhat more balanced mix of deliveries between NA + rest of the world.

Again, I'm not saying it HAS to be like this, but it seems a plausible explanation in my mind.

The second problem is that you are assuming that MX production will reduce MS production to zero. Given the total average production guidance of up to 1800 cars/week and current MS production rate of 1200 cars/week, MX production will need to scale up to more than 600 cars/week before it STARTS to affect MS production, and to full 1800 cars/week before the MS production will have to be really diminished. None of this could possibly happen 5 weeks after the update of NA wait time, i.e. by the third week of January.

Also here I'm not quite sure it HAS to be exactly as you outlined: there could well be an overall drop in production for a week or two while the factory "gets ready to have the two cars on the line" - or let me rephrase this: I don't see how the first weeks of Model X production immediately lead to a boost in total cars made per week - so I could well see a slight reduction in Model S cars made while Model X ramps up.

I'm not trying to be difficult: I see how the data shifts in funny ways. And I can see how there maybe new pockets of demand opened up. But I don't think the whole jump is as big a puzzle to me.
 
First, I agree that Tesla will try to fill the pipeline but it will happen over several quarters, not as you suggest within Q1, because it means delivering 2000 less cars that produced in Q1, the quarter for which there is the guidance for positive cash flow - this is just not going to happen.

Possibly not 2000, but you know I am skeptical of the Q1 cash flow positive guidance, so I am not willing to assume it is much less on that reason alone. We will produce more than the we will deliver in Q1, for sure. Maybe not 2000 but some it will be a significant non-zero number. But then again the backlog for overseas cars could well be over 4000 too. Remember that demand levers like the 2nd round referral program were in effect in Europe/Asia too yet hardly any cars yet have been build from that surge. There is also an unknown number of European cars that have been sold second hand to Denmark and the previous owners likely ordered a new replacement Tesla too, of which none have been delivered yet.

But more importantly, filling the pipeline means the opposite of what you are suggesting in the example. It means mixing NA cars in the beginning of the quarter with the overseas cars and mixing overseas cars with NA cars during the second half of the quarter, bringing production allocation in line with the incoming rate of orders from each geographical area, rather than front loading first half of the quarter with over seas cars, and back loading second half of the quarter with NA cars.

I disagree here. Yes, cars that go in the overseas pipeline will be build in the later half of the quarter. But that doesn't mean that production for the first half is for NA. My take is that they will build practically no cars for NA in the first half of the quarter and then in the second half of the quarter build 50/50 cars for NA and cars for the overseas pipeline.

The second problem is that you are assuming that MX production will reduce MS production to zero. Given the total average production guidance of up to 1800 cars/week and current MS production rate of 1200 cars/week, MX production will need to scale up to more than 600 cars/week before it STARTS to affect MS production, and to full 1800 cars/week before the MS production will have to be really diminished. None of this could possibly happen 5 weeks after the update of NA wait time, i.e. by the third week of January.

I don't think we will hit 1800 cars/week in the first quarter. Guidance for the full year is 1600 till 1800 cars. Historical evidence suggests we will be much closer to the former than the latter, maybe even as low as 1500/week for the first quarter. I can easily see model X production shoot up to 300 in a matter of 1-2 weeks. That was the plan after all right from the start if it wasn't for that pesky seat issue.
 
There are too many variables next quarter. Basically, we will be in the dark about too many things.

1. 1st quarter demand NA vs ROW, particularly in Jan. Will the current European backlogs have an impact ? If NA deliveries are throttled, will it impact NA reservations for the S. At this time, no one knows this. Not even TSLA mgmt.

And, the tail effects of the VW fiasco will continue.

There may demand drivers that TSLA may inject for the S. I doubt it will be zero. At this time, none of us knows this!

And, there will be the Model 3 announcement PR, with coverage building at least 10 days ahead of the actual announcement. But, this should not impact 1 Q much.

2. Actual total backlog for Europe from 4 Q that must be dealt with in 1 Q. We don't really know how much this is! We are all just guessing here.

3. Actual Model X vs Model S production in 1 Q ( including any supply chain issues during the quarter that may crop up, requiring production of X vs S adjustments). I doubt TSLA will share this info to any great detail even during the earnings CC first week of Feb.

4. Actual Model S production in Europe in 1 Q.

So, this is the first time where there will be many new variables.

Having said the above, I believe the production allocation decisions by Musk and the senior mgmt team, for X vs the S, will drive most of what happens, including margins and any operating free cash flow results.

The new variables will impact forecasting complexity significantly and increase our error ranges. I expect TSLA stock to have greater beta in the first half of 2016 ( as if the current beta is not enough, LOL ), and options markets for TSLA may have slightly higher premiums as a result.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for explaining your thoughts. However, I would come to a different reasoning here: If we assume that any production of Model S from mid-November onwards was diverted to NA, wouldn't it makes sense to fill only(!) orders for Europe / Asia now? In other words, there must be some orders + loaners + demo cars etc. that are urgently required in EU+Asia now. So if we assume that about 1.5 months of orders from outside NA are "backlogged" then it makes sense - in my mind - that order/delivery times in NA jump by approximately 2 months as soon as they "switch" production to non NA cars.

Mid-Q1 you could then start to maintain a somewhat more balanced mix of deliveries between NA + rest of the world.

Again, I'm not saying it HAS to be like this, but it seems a plausible explanation in my mind.



Also here I'm not quite sure it HAS to be exactly as you outlined: there could well be an overall drop in production for a week or two while the factory "gets ready to have the two cars on the line" - or let me rephrase this: I don't see how the first weeks of Model X production immediately lead to a boost in total cars made per week - so I could well see a slight reduction in Model S cars made while Model X ramps up.

I'm not trying to be difficult: I see how the data shifts in funny ways. And I can see how there maybe new pockets of demand opened up. But I don't think the whole jump is as big a puzzle to me.

I do not see the scenario of overseas/NA production you've outlined as a plausible one. It essentially boils down to producing exclusively overseas cars for 6 weeks starting in second half of December. What this means in real terms is that there will be no NA cars delivered in January 2016 - improbable IMO. Here is the link for InsideEVs scorecard. As you can see, depending on how front loaded production of overseas cars during the particular quarter was, the NA deliveries for the first month of the quarter were ranging from approx 1,100 (Jan 2015) to 1,900 (October 2015). So assumption of zero NA cars manufactured in second half of December/first half of January is just not accurate. As you can see from the above, the historical range of NA cars delivered during the first month of the quarter is 1,100 to 1,900 cars.

To continue with the quantitative analysis, during the second month of a quarter, according to the InsideEV scorecard NA deliveries ranged from 1,500 (Feb 2015) to 3,200 (Nov 2015).

Since wait time for NA was moved out to second half of February, even if we assume historically low deliveries from what is outlined above, the conservative estimate for NA deliveries in January-first half of February 2016 would be 1,100+0.5x1,500=2,600. So this number represents a conservative estimate of NA deliveries during the first six weeks of 2016. To look at this number another way, it represents about 36% of the assumed production rate of about 1200 MS/week. Given that according to the latest we heard from Tesla, NA orders comprise approximately 55% of total, this is confirmation that the historical data used above is indeed representative for a quarter with production allocation front loaded for overseas cars.

What above means is that we can conservatively expect that at least 2,600 MS will be delivered during the first 6 weeks of 2016. What this also means is that for Tesla to move estimated delivery time for NA cars to end of February, they had to receive about 2,600 NA orders, all within the span of one week. This is unrealistically high as the second half of 2015 historical average for a week worth of NA orders is only about 0.55 x 1200 = 660 cars! So the incoming rate of orders either jumped to quadruple of the expected rate, or there is some other anomaly at hand, hence my conclusion regarding the puzzle.

To sum the above, the “plausible” scenario you’ve outlined to explain the “puzzle” requires zero NA deliveries of MS in the first six weeks of the 2016 – not even remotely possible scenario in my opinion. I am still convinced that we are experiencing something unusual here – the puzzle remains unsolved as far as I am concerned. One probability I was wondering about is some one time unusual occurrence – for example a large fleet order of MS.
 
Last edited:
First, I agree that Tesla will try to fill the pipeline but it will happen over several quarters, not as you suggest within Q1, because it means delivering 2000 less cars that produced in Q1, the quarter for which there is the guidance for positive cash flow - this is just not going to happen.
Possibly not 2000, but you know I am skeptical of the Q1 cash flow positive guidance, so I am not willing to assume it is much less on that reason alone. We will produce more than the we will deliver in Q1, for sure. Maybe not 2000 but some it will be a significant non-zero number. But then again the backlog for overseas cars could well be over 4000 too. Remember that demand levers like the 2nd round referral program were in effect in Europe/Asia too yet hardly any cars yet have been build from that surge. There is also an unknown number of European cars that have been sold second hand to Denmark and the previous owners likely ordered a new replacement Tesla too, of which none have been delivered yet.
But more importantly, filling the pipeline means the opposite of what you are suggesting in the example. It means mixing NA cars in the beginning of the quarter with the overseas cars and mixing overseas cars with NA cars during the second half of the quarter, bringing production allocation in line with the incoming rate of orders from each geographical area, rather than front loading first half of the quarter with over seas cars, and back loading second half of the quarter with NA cars.

I disagree here. Yes, cars that go in the overseas pipeline will be build in the later half of the quarter. But that doesn't mean that production for the first half is for NA. My take is that they will build practically no cars for NA in the first half of the quarter and then in the second half of the quarter build 50/50 cars for NA and cars for the overseas pipeline.
Well, the two bolded statements are contradictory. First you state that your expectation is to use less than 2,000 cars to fill the overseas pipeline, but the second bolded statement means that the pipeline will be filled to the tune of 6 x 0.5 x 1200 =3600, i.e. almost double of what is assumed in first bolded statement.

Don’t take it personally, but I think that approaching this situation can’t be done without comprehensive quantitative analysis. What you tend to do is to mix-up some qualitative and quantitative analyses, which results in the contradictions similar to the one outlined above.

Most importantly, see my previous post – there is no chance IMO of zero MS cars delivered in NA during first six weeks of 2016

The second problem is that you are assuming that MX production will reduce MS production to zero. Given the total average production guidance of up to 1800 cars/week and current MS production rate of 1200 cars/week, MX production will need to scale up to more than 600 cars/week before it STARTS to affect MS production, and to full 1800 cars/week before the MS production will have to be really diminished. None of this could possibly happen 5 weeks after the update of NA wait time, i.e. by the third week of January.

I don't think we will hit 1800 cars/week in the first quarter. Guidance for the full year is 1600 till 1800 cars. Historical evidence suggests we will be much closer to the former than the latter, maybe even as low as 1500/week for the first quarter. I can easily see model X production shoot up to 300 in a matter of 1-2 weeks. That was the plan after all right from the start if it wasn't for that pesky seat issue.
And that is exactly what my point was: unless total production of 1800 cars/week is hit during the first quarter, there is no way Tesla is planning that MX production will negatively impact production of MS and planning the deliveries/estimated delivery time accordingly, which seemed to be your point that I originally commented on. Just remember how Tesla rolled back their guidance for 2015, due to lowering their estimate for the production of MX. This is the only data point we have from them, and it means that up to a certain limit (and as we established this limit will not likely to be reached during the first half of Q1) MX and MS production is expected to be complimentary to each other.