Well done Greenpeace...

[beeeerock]

Reading this thread prompts me to make the comment that I've thought about for a long time...

Simply, that it's all well and good to discuss all of this academically with those I largely consider friends and who share essentially the same morals and beliefs... but something else again to actively DO something about it.

I know we all believe we're doing something by spreading the doctrine, politely and calmly. And people like NWDIVER are putting up panels like there's no tomorrow (maybe there isn't ). But there isn't a political movement of any significance being developed here. No plotting to blockade the local legislature or oil refineries with Teslas. We're nice, law-abiding citizens.

We aren't the sort of people, by and large, who are willing to protest. But I'd probably feel better about myself if I was. The unfortunate reality is that we'll have to start hanging from bridges ourselves if we want the public to begin to understand the issues.

 

[lolachampcar]

Hanging from bridges does not help understanding, it draws attention. Being beaten for sitting in the wrong chair highlights the need for understanding in the simplest terms.

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

Hanging from bridges does not help understanding, it draws attention. /...

I disagree.

But regardless, either way I look at it, it’s far more complex than that.

 

[nwdiver]

Happening NOW... Police trying to pluck protesters from bridge with crane on barge...

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

…/ Also define democracy. /…/

Also how democratic the US is can be argued. Politics in the US is highly influenced/controlled by special interest. As William M. Tweed insightfully said: "I don't care who does the electing, so long as I get to do the nominating."

Major Study Finds The US Is An Oligarchy - Business Insider

"The U.S. government does not represent the interests of the majority of the country's citizens, but is instead ruled by those of the rich and powerful, a new study from Princeton and Northwestern universities has concluded."

Full study (academic, peer reviewed, empirical):

http://www.princeton.edu/~mgilens/Gilens%20homepage%20materials/Gilens%20and%20Page/Gilens%20and%20Page%202014-Testing%20Theories%203-7-14.pdf

Sooo, anyway, before this post is shipped off to the Politics Quarantine thread remeber: Read. Think (for yourself).

…/ Anyone interested read the study I posted upthread [Post #30. (My edit.)]. I'll just leave the study's closing paragraph here, and let's all ponder who some of the most powerful businesses are, and from what black, sticky substance many of the most affluent individuals owe their fortunes?

"... our analyses suggest that majorities of the American public actually have little influence over the policies our government adopts. Americans do enjoy many features central to democratic governance, such as regular elections, freedom of speech and association, and a widespread (if still contested) franchise. But we believe that if policymaking is dominated by powerful business organizations and a small number of affluent Americans, then America’s claims to being a democratic society are seriously threatened." /...

Also this little fact: The US is not a proportionate democracy (!)

What the majority of the US population thinks is moral and ethical – or with other words – right or wrong, is currently not being represented in the US Congress.

 

[rays427]

This reminds me of what the Santa Barbara city council did to punish the oil companies during the Santa Barbara oil spill. They voted on Friday to shut down all gas stations in the city. By Monday they discovered they couldn't buy gas and rescinded the ruling. Many folks want to shut down all fossil fuels without understanding the consequences. I think it's important to reduce our dependence on unfriendly sources of energy. This requires developing all sources within our control. In the foreseeable future this includes fossil fuels. Preventing the XL pipeline is stupid. The oil is going to get produced with or without the pipeline. The oil from Canada will just go to China and the oil in the North Dakota fields will continue to be shipped by rail which is much more dangerous to the environment.

 

[lolachampcar]

SA,

Ok, you're picking on the US just a little bit too much here. You do know that we have the very best government money can buy; don't you?

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

SA,

Ok, you're picking on the US just a little bit too much here. /...

Am I?

Then how about these folks?


FairVote.org | The Case for Proportional Representation

FairVote - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[beeeerock]

"Greenpeace to be fined $2500 per hour..." Heh, that's pretty cheap worldwide prime-time television exposure! :biggrin:

- - - Updated - - -

You do know that we have the very best government money can buy; don't you?

"CAN BUY"... LOL, good one! :biggrin: Ours is probably a close second though...

 

[James Anders]

Stupid.

As if there were no justifiable uses for petroleum based product other than "evil" gasoline.

I hope GP knows that petroleum based products are used in plastics, medicines, lubricants, etc.

Last time I checked there were plenty of plastics used in Tesla cars.

 

[Incredulocious]

Stupid. As if there were no justifiable uses for petroleum based product other than "evil" gasoline. I hope GP knows that petroleum based products are used in plastics, medicines, lubricants, etc.

That does not mean we should be foolish or careless about how we extract it. And "careless" includes drilling in the arctic:
why not drill in the artic for oil - Google Search

- - - Updated - - -

I think it's important to reduce our dependence on unfriendly sources of energy. This requires developing all sources within our control. In the foreseeable future this includes fossil fuels. Preventing the XL pipeline is stupid. The oil is going to get produced with or without the pipeline. The oil from Canada will just go to China and the oil in the North Dakota fields will continue to be shipped by rail which is much more dangerous to the environment.

what's wrong with keystone XL pipeline - Google Search

United States already producing more oil than it imports - Google Search

 

[nwdiver]

Stupid.

As if there were no justifiable uses for petroleum based product other than "evil" gasoline.

I hope GP knows that petroleum based products are used in plastics, medicines, lubricants, etc.

Last time I checked there were plenty of plastics used in Tesla cars.

LOL... ok... this really is one of the more absurd arguments... <15% of oil goes toward products like plastics... Much of THAT can be recycled; 'Cheap' oil is one reason a lot of it isn't.

Do you really think we'd need to venture up to the arctic to get oil we weren't burning it for fuel?..... really?...... REEAALLY? Come on...

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

.../

3. Relief wells are harder to drill. In the case of a blow-out – like happened with Deepwater Horizon - a relief well must be drilled, but the arrival of winter ice cuts the drilling season short. This means oil could be left gushing unstopped for up to two years.

/.../

6. Nature is even less capable of absorbing oil there than in lower latitudes. Lack of sunlight in winter and cold weather means that oil will take more time to break down. Oil will stay locked under the sea ice. More than 20 years after the Exxon Valdez disaster in Alaska, oil can still be found in the environment of Prince William Sound.

/...


Source: 10 reasons why Arctic drilling is a really stupid idea | Greenpeace International

Obligatory text...

 

[James Anders]

LOL... ok... this really is one of the more absurd arguments... <15% of oil goes toward products like plastics... Much of THAT can be recycled; 'Cheap' oil is one reason a lot of it isn't.

Do you really think we'd need to venture up to the arctic to get oil we weren't burning it for fuel?..... really?...... REEAALLY? Come on...

I am quite aware that the percentage of non-fuel uses of petroleum is small. Yes, really.

It's the all or nothing mentality of Greenpeace that I find annoying. As if we could immediately stop all oil production overnight. There are many interconnected issues at work - such as having a good percentage of petroleum reserves in the hands of unfriendly and hostile countries and players (i.e. ISIS).

The trend away from oil as a means of fuel for transportation is clear. Electric is going to be the future and such grandstanding stunts won't accelerate that one bit. These stunts only perpetuate the wacko environmentalist meme.

 

[nwdiver]

It's the all or nothing mentality of Greenpeace that I find annoying.

I must have missed the hundreds of other protests today... I thought they were just trying to stop Shell from looking for oil in the arctic :wink:

I haven't heard a good answer from anyone as to how we accelerate this transition... 1/3 of new vehicle sales in Norway is electric... what's wrong with Americans? How do we get them to shift? You think hanging from bridges to send a message isn't the way... what's your proposal?

Seriously... we need >50% of new vehicle sales in 10 years to be electric and we've got to install ~200GW of solar... what's the plan? I'm at a loss... More time is exponentially more risk. What's your proposal?

 

[Canuck]

I am quite aware that the percentage of non-fuel uses of petroleum is small. Yes, really.

It's the all or nothing mentality of Greenpeace that I find annoying. As if we could immediately stop all oil production overnight. There are many interconnected issues at work - such as having a good percentage of petroleum reserves in the hands of unfriendly and hostile countries and players (i.e. ISIS).

The trend away from oil as a means of fuel for transportation is clear. Electric is going to be the future and such grandstanding stunts won't accelerate that one bit. These stunts only perpetuate the wacko environmentalist meme.

This stunt wasn't about stopping all oil production overnight. Such a comment is more "wacko" (to use your word) than this stunt. No one thinks that and that's not what this stunt was about. Plus, if you think stunts like this don't change things then you are not very educated on this subject. Case in point: Clayoquot Sound's old growth rainforests in my Province of BC -- when Greenpeace, and others, protested clearcut logging of that old growth back in the early 1990's (NOT all logging - OLD GROWTH Clayoquot sound logging -- just like not all oil production but drilling in the Chukchi Sea). Those Clayoquot stunts, which were part of one of Canada's largest acts of civil disobedience worked to help protect our old growth rainforests. So before you tell me these stunts don't work, you really need to do your homework because I have lived through these stunts workings:

Clayoquot protests - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Clayoquot Sound | Greenpeace Canada

 

[nwdiver]

The other thing to keep in mind is that we've got ~20 years of recoverable oil IN THE US... IN THE LOWER 48. That's MORE than enough time to quit our addiction... if we're serious about it. This arctic exploration is a bet that WON'T happen; That's unacceptable. Arctic exploration and Tar sands CAN NOT BE ALLOWED TO HAPPEN. That's a step toward a future we may not survive.

 

[Vger]

This stunt wasn't about stopping all oil production overnight. Such a comment is more "wacko" (to use your word) than this stunt. No one thinks that and that's not what this stunt was about. Plus, if you think stunts like this don't change things then you are not very educated on this subject. Case in point: Clayoquot Sound's old growth rainforests in my Province of BC -- when Greenpeace, and others, protested clearcut logging of that old growth back in the early 1990's (NOT all logging - OLD GROWTH Clayoquot sound logging -- just like not all oil production but drilling in the Chukchi Sea). Those Clayoquot stunts, which were part of one of Canada's largest acts of civil disobedience worked to help protect our old growth rainforests. So before you tell me these stunts don't work, you really need to do your homework because I have lived through these stunts workings:

Clayoquot protests - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Clayoquot Sound | Greenpeace Canada

Bravo, fellow Canuck!

Those who are not courageous to turn back the tide of the status quo are fond of oversimplifying or making a caricature of the arguments of wise and well-informed questioners. Beware the rush to judgement, all.

 

[Tripple_T]

Honestly...I think we just need Tesla to keep building awesome electric cars...People will be won over by the car and forget all about the fuel source. Many people are turned off by the "Prius type" of drivers. Bring Captain Planet back and make Green cool again...It might help to make the Green options not appear to be more expensive. Perception is everything and right now a Tesla isn't seen as an affordable green option to many. In the US we have to pay for someone to recycle our recyclables...IE: Cincinnati we have to pay and extra amount of money for our trash collector to take our recyclables away. Many people choose not to recycle because they don't want the added cost.

 

[beeeerock]

It's the all or nothing mentality of Greenpeace that I find annoying.

Would that be the same 'all or nothing' mentality of Big Oil, or a different 'all or nothing' mentality?