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Western Canada Superchargers

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Nice round-up, @CanadaGoose. Looks like the South Surrey location [and formerly White Rock location before that] a few of us are waiting for has been pushed back yet again, to Q2 2022. Disappointing, though not unexpected. Sigh.
It really sucks. How hard is it, really? They are printing money wherever they built a supercharger yet we have to wait for another year for a supercharger in one of the busiest areas for Tesla charging around Vancouver.
 
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It really sucks. How hard is it, really? They are printing money wherever they built a supercharger yet we have to wait for another year for a supercharger in one of the busiest areas for Tesla charging around Vancouver.
On the plus side, Tesla has added a site in Delta on their updated map. If that site is in the SE part of Delta it might fill some of the need (although the time frame is the same (Q2 2022).
 
It really sucks. How hard is it, really? They are printing money wherever they built a supercharger yet we have to wait for another year for a supercharger in one of the busiest areas for Tesla charging around Vancouver.
Why would you say they are printing money? The demand charges for electricity at those current levels is probably higher than what we're paying Tesla.
 
Tesla runs most Superchargers at a heavy loss, but they do this so that they make a killing in car sales. The Supercharger network despite being a money pit, supports their business sales model. In BC a $10 charging session, $5 is the cost of the electricity to the utility, roughly $2.50 goes to the land-owner in rent/lease costs and $2.50 goes into Tesla's pocket (these are rough but relatively accurate figures). At around $150-$200k per stall cost (10 stall setup is $1.5-$2 million) ... it would take around a million charging sessions just to break even. For sure not anywhere near profitable. This doesn't include constant maintenance costs either. Charging is not a profitable business sadly. I wish it were. Perhaps when we pay $80+ for a fill up like gas cars, it's not likely to be an attractive industry to be in. ( I owned a EV consulting business so I have some little bit of knowledge in this and I've owned a Model 3 for 3 years, so this is based on my charging history while traveling around BC over the years ). Thank goodness for Tesla's foresight to build the charging network, otherwise we would have been at the same level as hydrogen stations right now.
 
Tesla runs most Superchargers at a heavy loss, but they do this so that they make a killing in car sales. The Supercharger network despite being a money pit, supports their business sales model. In BC a $10 charging session, $5 is the cost of the electricity to the utility, roughly $2.50 goes to the land-owner in rent/lease costs and $2.50 goes into Tesla's pocket (these are rough but relatively accurate figures). At around $150-$200k per stall cost (10 stall setup is $1.5-$2 million) ... it would take around a million charging sessions just to break even. For sure not anywhere near profitable. This doesn't include constant maintenance costs either. Charging is not a profitable business sadly. I wish it were. Perhaps when we pay $80+ for a fill up like gas cars, it's not likely to be an attractive industry to be in. ( I owned a EV consulting business so I have some little bit of knowledge in this and I've owned a Model 3 for 3 years, so this is based on my charging history while traveling around BC over the years ). Thank goodness for Tesla's foresight to build the charging network, otherwise we would have been at the same level as hydrogen stations right now.

Not sure where you’re getting your numbers. Depending on complexity, 8 stall Superchargers vary in cost but can be as little as $200,000 for the whole site. A far cry from $200,000 per stall. Also, I’ve seen some information (lease templates) suggesting that quite a few sites are leased for a token amount (basically free), not 25% of the charging session.

Maybe that’s what other charging providers pay… 🤷‍♂️

The profit killers are sites with high demand charges but low monthly throughput. With low traffic, a site can’t amortize the demand fee across as many sessions. Low traffic sites are loss leaders and high traffic sites probably turn a bit of profit, the average being break-even at best, but more likely an overall loss considering the massive network expansion that’s underway.

And yes, EV charging is a tough gig. Tesla is going to crush the competition when they start opening access to other EVs.
 
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Not sure where you’re getting your numbers. Depending on complexity, 8 stall Superchargers vary in cost but can be as little as $200,000 for the whole site. A far cry from $200,000 per stall. Also, I’ve seen some information (lease templates) suggesting that quite a few sites are leased for a token amount (basically free), not 25% of the charging session.

Maybe that’s what other charging providers pay… 🤷‍♂️

The profit killers are sites with high demand charges but low monthly throughput. With low traffic, a site can’t amortize the demand fee across as many sessions. Low traffic sites are loss leaders and high traffic sites probably turn a bit of profit, the average being break-even at best, but more likely an overall loss considering the massive network expansion that’s underway.

And yes, EV charging is a tough gig. Tesla is going to crush the competition when they start opening access to other EVs.
Another data point for Supercharger costs is the recent Tesla Supercharger installs in BC and Alberta which have Natural Resources Canada funding.
The NRCan funding covers up to 50% of the total project costs. While most of the other charging networks maxed out their funding on the projects at the maximum level (mostly $50000 for <100 kW chargers), Tesla averaged less than this, even after their chargers are much faster than the 100 kW level and would have been eligible for more if their costs were more.

Note that the funding required non-Tesla charging as well, so these include the Tesla Superchargers plus the additional non-Tesla DC charging equipment. The Superchargers seem to be significantly less than the non-Supercharger equipment used (since the funding program that had proportionally less non-Tesla chargers averaged less per stall). A Tesla only solution would likely be less than the ZEVIF program costs below (which has only one non-Tesla DC charger per eight Superchargers), but at least this would put an upper limit on costs of a typical installation.

Note that pricing is in Canadian dollars (CAD). You can use a CAD to USD conversion to convert to USD funds.

Electric Vehicle and Alternative Fuel Infrastructure Deployment:


BC: 78 electric vehicle charging stations ($3,090,000 funding for 58 Superchargers + 20 Flo AddEnergie SmartDC Fast charging stations), $39515 CAD per stall funding, $79231 CAD per stall full cost if funding was 50%. Current exchange is about $63200 USD per stall.

BC+Alberta+SK: 51 electric vehicle charging stations ($2,012,500 funding for 38 Superchargers +13 Flo AddEnergie SmartDC Fast charging stations), $39460 CAD per stall funding, $78921 CAD full cost if funding was 50%. At current exchange this is $62991 USD per stall.

---

Zero Emission Vehicle Infrastructure Program


27 Electric vehicle chargers ($794,459 funding for 24 Superchargers with 8 each on 3 sites + 3 Flo Addenergie SmartDC Fast charging stations with one for each of the 3 sites), $29424 CAD per stall funding, $58849 CAD full cost per stall if funding was 50%. This is $46964 USD per stall.

Note that the funding provided for up to $75000 per charger for fast chargers 100 kW and above, and Tesla requested less than half that value (although the 3 non-Tesla chargers were only 50 kW so the maximum funding for them is $50000 per stall).

Also note that BC Hydro which is using the same non-Tesla DC fast charger as Tesla requested the maximum $50000 per stall in the Electric Vehicle and Alternative Fuel Infrastructure Deployment funding, although their overhead costs would have been higher since their installations were one or two stalls per site rather than 8 or more with the Tesla funding, so the fixed (transformer, installation) costs per stall would be higher with the non-Tesla projects.
 
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Yes Tesla's numbers will be very neatly private. It's impossible to say, but I did own an EV charging installation consulting business with install experience with ChargePoint and Flo. We did installs for some municipalities and businesses, but businesses were not interested as the return on investment was horrible. So my Tesla figures are based on the logistics of pumping in 150-200 kw per charger as you need some serious equipment, cabling and adaptations to the grid in the install area (more kw = more $$). While there are some incentives, they still don't make this venture profitable anytime soon. 50k kw stations were around $100-$150k (in BC) depending on the location and distance from the infrastructure in the area. I'm sure Tesla has gotten better pricing but they do not build 1-2 stalls per location, they build 8-20 (average in Canada) and that actually makes the price per KW much higher than a 50 kw station.

All I'm pointing out is that even for Tesla, adding in all incentives and costs, charging profitability is a long-term game but really will take a long time if ever to break even. No matter which way you run the numbers, on a $10 charge session, Tesla pocket around $2-$3. It's not great as a business, but awesome for us consumers.
 
Not sure where you’re getting your numbers. Depending on complexity, 8 stall Superchargers vary in cost but can be as little as $200,000 for the whole site. A far cry from $200,000 per stall. Also, I’ve seen some information (lease templates) suggesting that quite a few sites are leased for a token amount (basically free), not 25% of the charging session.

Keeping in mind that this forum is related to Western Canada Superchargers, you cannot compare to MUCH cheaper USA costs to extremely high costs in BC. I get my numbers from a few years of EV Installation experience. For $200k you get a couple meager 50 kw stations installed in BC, certainly not an 8 stall Supercharger Station, sorry! The cost of cabling alone without markup on an 8 stall is likely around $200k. Then add extreme labor costs, costs tacked on by the Municipality for inspections and permits and leases/agreements with landowners. Easily in BC $1-$2 million, absolutely no problem at all.

Maybe a lease in the middle of nowhere is "basically free" but not in BC or Western Canada. No business in BC will accept a small cut of the pie and loose 8+ parking stalls from their expensive lease. Keeping in mind 25% is just $2.50 on a $10 session. You can only bend a little up or down but either way, it's not profitable for any party other than the installing contractors which are raking in the money right now.

But in the end, this is the genius of Tesla. Build the infrastructure so far ahead of the competition and at a big financial loss, and no competition will even dare come into this field to compete with Tesla. It's put Tesla a lightyear ahead of any competition and now the Supercharger network is one of their greatest assets, and they don't even own the land the Superchargers are built on. Genius.
 
Maybe a lease in the middle of nowhere is "basically free" but not in BC or Western Canada.
But didn't you hear? Western Canada is the middle of nowhere :) Okay maybe not Vancouver Metro, but much of the rest of it is.

Anyways, from what I've read on these forums and elsewhere over the years, your numbers about supercharger installation costs are off by an order of magnitude. I can believe that single stall non-Tesla chargers cost as much as you are saying though (again based on reading many threads and articles on the topic). Maybe Tesla is just that much better at the EV charger installation game than everyone else is.

Lastly, I don't think the costs associated with EV charging systems differ nearly as much as you are implying between Canada and the US. I'm in general agreement with Big Earl in terms of low traffic supercharger sites being loss leaders and some high traffic sites turning a profit for Tesla.
 
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But didn't you hear? Western Canada is the middle of nowhere

Well the difference is that in the US "middle of nowhere" apparently it costs $200k to build 8 SC's. But in Western Canada "middle of nowhere" it costs $1-$2 million. Keeping in mind BC is the most expensive region in North America.

I know the raw cost of materials here, the raw cost of labor here and the cost of dealing with municipal bureaucracy here ... Western Canada. I'm not commenting on USA threads and telling you what things cost there. I have hands on experience. As I said before, nobody knows what Tesla's costs are, but I know what they're buying materials for here and the cabling alone is minimum $200k before all other costs are piled on top!

Don't get me wrong, I love paying nothing for my charging, but from a business point of view, it's one of the worst business models here in Western Canada. High up front costs and little to no profit.
 
I love paying nothing for my charging,
But, contrary to what you believe, you do/did pay for your supercharging, you just paid upfront instead of as-you-go. Tesla books a portion of the sale on each car that has free supercharging as revenue for the supercharger network. At one point it was like $5,000 USD of the car's price was considered payment for "free" supercharging, not sure if that figure ever changed over time or not. Getting rid of "free" supercharging was one of the levers Tesla used to be able to reduce the sales price of their cars and still maintain the margins they wanted on each car.
 
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Well the difference is that in the US "middle of nowhere" apparently it costs $200k to build 8 SC's. But in Western Canada "middle of nowhere" it costs $1-$2 million. Keeping in mind BC is the most expensive region in North America.

I know the raw cost of materials here, the raw cost of labor here and the cost of dealing with municipal bureaucracy here ... Western Canada. I'm not commenting on USA threads and telling you what things cost there. I have hands on experience. As I said before, nobody knows what Tesla's costs are, but I know what they're buying materials for here and the cabling alone is minimum $200k before all other costs are piled on top!

Don't get me wrong, I love paying nothing for my charging, but from a business point of view, it's one of the worst business models here in Western Canada. High up front costs and little to no profit.
I agree that it's doubtful that most Superchargers make much of a profit and they need them as a cost of doing business to be able to sell the cars.

However I linked above that there is a publicly available source that you can indirectly use to determine costs for the Tesla Superchargers funded under the NRCan grants.


The grants are known to cover up to 50% of the costs with a cap per charger ($50000 for <100 kW).

Tesla's funding is LESS than the cap, thus their actual costs are likely exactly double the funding even though their chargers would be eligible for a higher cap of $75000 each due to being 100 kW or higher.

BC Hydro for example asked for exactly the cap ($50000 per <100 kW charger), likely indicating that they could fund less than half their actual costs before reaching the cap, which would indicate that EACH stall of the SmartDC stalls would be at least $100000 or more (double the $50K cap), which does seem to agree with your personal experience.

For the Zero Emission Vehicle Infrastructure Program, Tesla installed 27 chargers in total. The specific locations for this program were not specified but the counts and timing seem to match the equipment for 3 sites, Cache Creek, Williams Lake, and Quesnel, each with 8 Superchargers and one AddEnergie SmartDC charger.

Total funding was $794,459 CAD or 1,588,918 CAD total project costs if you take into consideration the funding was half the project cost.
Divided by three complete sites is $529,639 CAD per site - 8 Superchargers and one SmartDC.
Or breaking down per stall (including the SmartDC) it is $58849 CAD.

This is including the infrastructure plus the Superchargers plus the SmartDC which they don't manufacture so need to purchase from AddEnergie and this also requires individual transformers which the Supercharger cabinets would not normally require. So their actual costs if it was a Supercharger only site would likely be (probably much) less.

So Tesla does seem to have some methods to reduce their construction costs over what your experience with other (smaller) installations suggests, possibly a combination of cookie-cutter engineering and the same installation contractors since they put in so many similar sites, volume/supplier discounts on materials, the sheer size of each install (thus the fixed infrastructure cost becomes a smaller per-stall cost) and their vertical integration that they manufacture their own Superchargers.
 
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Is it just me or did anybody else notice that with all the new SC's announced recently, at least one "upcoming" location has vanished from the new map. City of Vancouver was supposed to get a new SC in 2022 but it has vanished!
Perhaps it became the West Vancouver, Delta, or South Surrey locations once the location was more fleshed out, all of those seem newly added this round.