Wh/km (or mi) / range grossly mis-advertised, if not fraudulent... srsly.

[yogi799]

OK guys, sorry if anyone considers this a rant but I've finally concluded that Tesla is hiding info and mis-advertises the range of the car. It is truly crazy. We're not talking 10-20 percent as you might see on EPA estimates for ICE cars. We are talking 50%+ overestimate on range, near criminal if you ask me.

Quick intro, then some data. I bought the car seeing range estimate of 434 km (don't worry if you use miles, who cares, just look at the raw numbers, they will make sense).
Winter has been mild here and I am lucky to get HALF that as my real life range (not gonna engage here in discussion on driving habits as this should not make a 50% difference on energy consumption and it does not on ICE cars.., PLUS i am provding my avg consumption below).

So: advertised: 434 km. Real: 200 km. I mean, SRSLY???

Insane. I was estimating 330-350 km range when i ordered the car (30% off the posted numbers "to be safe" , oh boy was i wrong) - of course i never believed the official estimates. But to mis-represent it by over 50%? I can hardly do my usual trips now without having to plug the darn car in into friends' outlets. Embarrassing as hell. I need to explain to them that it will only cost pennies to charge but i need that extra 10% to make it to my next stop. Sucks. I also have an option of super-charging but that costs me as much as gas, so.. no , thanks. I bought tesla to save on gas.

And some data:

60 kwh battery, LFP - M3 delivered Nov 2022, charged to 100% before leaving. Mild winter, Temps around freezing mark.

Consumption on the display shows roughly 200 wh/km, meaning my range should be 300 km (and i would be happy with that!).

Oh wait, there is the cabin heat and phantom power draw which tesla conveniently hides from all promotional materials, especially the range estimate which is by far the most visible number out there.

So, forget the 200 wh/km consumption. Since i am getting only 200km range on 60 kwh battery, 60/200 yields 300 wh/km total overall power draw for my 3 day trip with 2 overnights. Sentry disabled.

300 wh/km instead of 200 wh/km posted on the display. Get it?

That means driving takes 200 wh/km and everything else another 100 wh/km. SRSLY? 50% of driving power is used by cabin heat? You have to be kidding me. Crazy and fraudulent . srsly. <<< THIS IS my biggest beef. Not the 200 wh/km driving consumption itself, the 100 wh/km extra!

Anyone see my point here? Does Elon give a ___? Srsly, if i knew i would only get 200 km range, i might not have gotten the car which i love otherwise. I mean, just be honest with folks shelling out 60k CAD for a small (but fun) car. Too much to ask?

For our MPG friends 300 wh/km use with cabin heat = 480 wh/mi. AGAIN, 1/3 of that is NOT used for driving, unless the car lies.

 

[Operator64]

So who did the range testing Certification?

 

[zoomer0056]

Use the energy app in car. See what it says as to where battery is being used.

 

[ATPMSD]

EVs (all EVs not just Tesla) are different animals from ICE cars and too many people do not understand this, which is why there are a lot of range complaints. Let’s take heat, for example:

In an ICE car heat is free! It is a byproduct of running the engine and all you need is a fan. But in an EV the heat must be created either via a resistance heater or a heat pump, and that takes battery power. In my MS, which has resistance heating, this equate to 6 kWh / hour or 100 Wh/mi at 60 MPH.

Remember the advertised range for an EV is based on the standard EPA test done under more or less ideal conditions. Unfortunately, as noted above, things like heat impose a large range penalty in an EV.

 

[Supcom]

EVs suffer significant range loss in cold temperatures, especially if you are making relatively short trips without preconditioning the battery before departure. According to my M3LR stats, driving in 70-80 degF uses an average of 258 Wh/mi. But, when the temps drop to 20 degF, my average consumption rises to 358 Wh/mi. Below 20 degF, it should get even worse.

 

[beatle]

not gonna engage here in discussion on driving habits

Well I guess this thread is over then.

Otherwise cabin heat, battery heater (you overnighted twice), increased cold wind resistance, elevation changes, high speed, low regen all play a part in what range you get from the car. Using route planning tools ahead of time will help you plan around any necessary charging stops. A logging service like TeslaFi is a good way to see what your efficiency is.

Supercharging is as cheap as filling a car with 87 octane that gets 30mpg. That's nothing when compared to an ICE car with equivalent power. Supercharge when necessary for long trips and use destination charging otherwise. Why would you be embarrassed to charge at friends' and family's homes? I am not. We joke about how expensive it is and how I am such a mooch while we share beers. Buying a Tesla just to save on gas is largely a false economy anyway. Wait until you need tires.

 

[Operator64]

Well I guess this thread is over then.

Otherwise cabin heat, battery heater (you overnighted twice), increased cold wind resistance, elevation changes, high speed, low regen all play a part in what range you get from the car. Using route planning tools ahead of time will help you plan around any necessary charging stops. A logging service like TeslaFi is a good way to see what your efficiency is.

Supercharging is as cheap as filling a car with 87 octane that gets 30mpg. That's nothing when compared to an ICE car with equivalent power. Supercharge when necessary for long trips and use destination charging otherwise. Why would you be embarrassed to charge at friends' and family's homes? I am not. We joke about how expensive it is and how I am such a mooch while we share beers. Buying a Tesla just to save on gas is largely a false economy anyway. Wait until you need tires.

Don’t want to be held responsible for the high usage, just want to drive like a fool and the car should go forever

 

[beatle]

Don’t want to be held responsible for the high usage, just want to drive like a fool and the car should go forever

I don't even understand what this statement means. "held responsible for the high usage?" "car should go forever?"

 

[yogi799]

Use the energy app in car. See what it says as to where battery is being used.

I did. It said on last trip energy used was 17%. Out of which 14% was used for driving, cabin heat was very small, like 1% and some other things totalled to 3%. 14+3=17. THAT IS not 50% extra as in 200 wh/km + PHANTOM 100 wh/km extra which i am experiencing. SO.. what gives???

EVs (all EVs not just Tesla) are different animals from ICE cars and too many people do not understand this, which is why there are a lot of range complaints. Let’s take heat, for example:

In an ICE car heat is free! It is a byproduct of running the engine and all you need is a fan. But in an EV the heat must be created either via a resistance heater or a heat pump, and that takes battery power. In my MS, which has resistance heating, this equate to 6 kWh / hour or 100 Wh/mi at 60 MPH.

Remember the advertised range for an EV is based on the standard EPA test done under more or less ideal conditions. Unfortunately, as noted above, things like heat impose a large range penalty in an EV.

I did think about it on my way to work today. I have a nice space heater at home. 1300 wh and puts out a tonne of heat, enough to heat up a room, let alone small car cabin. So... 1300 watts per hour! How can then my tesla use 20kwh (1/3 of my total battery) on cabin heat in total of 2-3 hours of driving?? makes no sense and as i said above, tesla green screen said out of 17% used on last trip, only 1% was used on cabin heat. Where the hell is the rest going???

EVs suffer significant range loss in cold temperatures, especially if you are making relatively short trips without preconditioning the battery before departure. According to my M3LR stats, driving in 70-80 degF uses an average of 258 Wh/mi. But, when the temps drop to 20 degF, my average consumption rises to 358 Wh/mi. Below 20 degF, it should get even worse.

I do precondition and i make no short trips. shortest trip is 15 minutes, average is 30 minutes. The other trips that period ware 50 minutes each, so.. no. no short trips and yes, preconditioned AND might i add... preconditioning is kinda stupid because i lose immediately 2-3 percent of SOC if i do it when the car is unplugged, so what am i really saving since the 3% loss happens before i even enter the cabin?? (10 min precon). I can't be plugged in to L2 charger when at GF's house or my friends.

Well I guess this thread is over then.

Otherwise cabin heat, battery heater (you overnighted twice), increased cold wind resistance, elevation changes, high speed, low regen all play a part in what range you get from the car. Using route planning tools ahead of time will help you plan around any necessary charging stops. A logging service like TeslaFi is a good way to see what your efficiency is.

Supercharging is as cheap as filling a car with 87 octane that gets 30mpg. That's nothing when compared to an ICE car with equivalent power. Supercharge when necessary for long trips and use destination charging otherwise. Why would you be embarrassed to charge at friends' and family's homes? I am not. We joke about how expensive it is and how I am such a mooch while we share beers. Buying a Tesla just to save on gas is largely a false economy anyway. Wait until you need tires.

"Buying a Tesla just to save on gas is largely a false economy anyway. Wait until you need tires."

What? that is exactly why i bought the tesla! TO save a lot of money! Freaking ELON is telling me 12k in gas savings over the life of the car or whatever, BRO, they are in my face with such promotional bullshit on their website when you order the car!! so why would you say that is not why you buy a tesla. so is ELON a grand f liar? I used to spend 300 CAD a month in gas which equates to a decent car monthly payment for the loan alone! I get cheap tires Chinese knockoffs which have served me well for last 10+ on a 60k BMW 535i (2011). Tesla tires (winter) cost me 120 cad per tire. same as bmw and many other cars and suvs.

I don't even understand what this statement means. "held responsible for the high usage?" "car should go forever?"

zactly. just a waste of time some people u know?

 

[ikarusk]

I can confirm that the advertised range is nowhere near real-life range.

I have driven 3 different models over the past 3 years, M3LR, M3P and MX.
First I had my battery indicator set to estimated available range left in KM.
But it was too misleading. Everytime I wanted to make a trip I had to charge in between because I would not get the estimated range that was provided at the start of the trip.

The M3LR would say 380-403km on a full charge, but I would probably only get to 235-265.
The M3P would give me about the same amount of KM on a full charge, but it would only get me to 200-215km.
The MX would give me 455km on a full charge and it would get me to 300-315. So in terms of range the MX was the best.

I must say, I had these cars from november up until march. The average temperature is around 5-8 degrees C. So temp could have had a serious effect on the battery. I have no garage, so the cars were standing outside all night with charger plugged in.
Also... I love the performance of the cars. I like the acceleration. On the highway I probably drive 125-135km/h (78-82 mph).
I mostly do short trips like 15 minutes max to get to work.

Those combined are probably the reason I only get 55-65% of the advertised range.

Is the advertised range wrong? I guess not because you could get the range in perfect conditions.
But if you drive your Tesla a bit sporty (like what it was meant for) you will not get that range.
Heating the car or the seats, having the AC on or off does help like a small percentage, but in the end it comes down to how you drive the car and the outside temperature.

I feel your frustration, I was frustrated at first too. But all EV manufacturers do it. I had a hybrid BMW last year (X5 45e) with an advertised electric range of 70-80km. I never got to 65.
If you put the car in chill mode, don't accelerate that much, have a speed limit of 110km/u (70mph) and wait until its 15 degrees C outside, your probably going to get 75-85% of range.

 

[yogi799]

Thanks Bud, great to see real numbers from you as well.

Sure, i get it, what irks me though is the PHANTOM power draw, not so much my real driving power usage (which let's say rests at my foot or my driving conditions, sure). I am beginning to think the wh/km ratio shown on the screen is total BULLSHIT, off by 50%. That is why my M3 shows 100 wh/km unexplained power draw as demonstrated in my posts. Maybe the real driving consumption is not 200 whkm at all as shown, but 250, and phantom draw is then 50, not 100. Maybe they need to add a disclaimer that: 1. not only do we mislead customers by a margin of 1:2 when they buy the car, 2: we also bullshit the energy consumption shown on the screen.

Yes, the car is a dream to drive. no doubts about that. just want a bit more honesty from the company. Not gonna get it i know. AGain, great to see your real numbers. thx

 

[yogi799]

Here you go, usage as shown by trip computer. MAKES no sense. Where the hell is the extra 100 wh/km wasted at if my cabin heat and everything else seems completely insignificant! BTW. Not shown here buy my driving usage, despite very dynamic driving was shown at exactly 200 wh/km (as in the OP), so not far off the posted numbers (150 wh/km or so). But the car consumes 300 wh/km for some unexplained reason. WHY???

 

[Operator64]

Here you go, usage as shown by trip computer. MAKES no sense. Where the hell is the extra 100 wh/km wasted at if my cabin heat and everything else seems completely insignificant! BTW. Not shown here buy my driving usage, despite very dynamic driving was shown at exactly 200 wh/km (as in the OP), so not far off the posted numbers (150 wh/km or so). But the car consumes 300 wh/km for some unexplained reason. WHY???

View attachment 897403

It tells you the EXACT reasons for higher consumption just to the right of your red chicken scratches, provide the WHOLE PICTURE if you want help decider if what it says.

 

[yogi799]

OK, sure, on the surface this is where the problem is BUT:

My trip computer shows ~200 wh/km on that same very screen (here you go) which should give me ~300 km range on 60kw LFP battery charged to 100% 300x200! Yet I get exactly 210 or so, suggesting ~300 wh/km consumption (and cabin heat is nothing!). See my point? What gives? Math doesn't add up. Some info provided by the car is just misleading/incorrect, no?

 

[beatle]

I guess you're not interested in reading the explanation the car gives you for your increased consumption. Under ideal conditions the car would consume 5.8% and your driving and climate control increased that to 10%.

What do you expect to get out of this thread?

 

[Operator64]

OK, sure, on the surface this is where the problem is BUT:

My trip computer shows ~200 wh/km on that same very screen (here you go) which should give me ~300 km range on 60kw LFP battery charged to 100% 300x200! Yet I get exactly 210 or so, suggesting ~300 wh/km consumption (and cabin heat is nothing!). See my point? What gives? Math doesn't add up. Some info provided by the car is just misleading/incorrect, no?

View attachment 897409

decreased Mental capacity is the biggest issue

 

[Randy-12]

Someone didn't do their research before purchasing. If so they would have know that in winter you would loose 30-50% with the LFP battery.

Tesla even recommends that for the best winter driving experience to purchase the long range

Very Cold Weather​

For the best long range driving experience in the coldest driving conditions, we recommend a Long Range or Performance Model 3.

 

[Supcom]

Someone didn't do their research before purchasing. If so they would have know that in winter you would loose 30-50% with the LFP battery.

Tesla even recommends that for the best winter driving experience to purchase the long range

Very Cold Weather​

For the best long range driving experience in the coldest driving conditions, we recommend a Long Range or Performance Model 3.

What the OP doesn't realize is that a 60 kWh LFP battery (or any battery type) does not produce 60 kWh when the temperature gets cold. The apparent 'missing' kWh aren't really missing. It's just that physics prevents the battery from converting as much of its chemical energy to electrical energy. So, the SoC percentage drops faster than it does in moderate temperatures because instead of the battery being able to produce 60 kWh, it might now be capable of producing 40 kWh.

All EV batteries suffer from this to some degree. It's not just EVs. Cold alkaline batteries lose output faster than warm ones. It's a fact of life that EVs must be charged more often in frigid temps than in warm temps.

 

[yogi799]

What the OP doesn't realize is that a 60 kWh LFP battery (or any battery type) does not produce 60 kWh when the temperature gets cold. The apparent 'missing' kWh aren't really missing. It's just that physics prevents the battery from converting as much of its chemical energy to electrical energy. So, the SoC percentage drops faster than it does in moderate temperatures because instead of the battery being able to produce 60 kWh, it might now be capable of producing 40 kWh.

All EV batteries suffer from this to some degree. It's not just EVs. Cold alkaline batteries lose output faster than warm ones. It's a fact of life that EVs must be charged more often in frigid temps than in warm temps.

OK I buy that explanation, thanks. If that is where the crux of it rests. I've been told to expect 30% loss. ALSO, i often precondition ("warm up"?) my battery when plugged in to L2 so i assumed that that, to some extent, alleviates the effect of colder weather on the battery.

So when can i begin to expect the 60 kwh to be closer to 60? Around what ambient temperatures? I got my ride in November so it has been between 5 C and -15 C (41 F to 5F).

 

[yogi799]

Ooops, just when I wanted to take the above as the definite answer, i read this

Testing shows Tesla’s lose far less range in cold weather than other EVs

As per testing by Recurrent, Tesla vehicles lose far less range in cold weather than other EVs on the market.

driveteslacanada.ca

Quotes:

The Tesla Model 3 Long Range and the Tesla Model Y Long Range only showed a 1% loss in range.

The Tesla Model S P100D had a 4% loss in range.