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What are people's thoughts on the Mustang Mach e?
- Thread starter Glan gluaisne
- Start date
ICE car manufacturers seem a bit lost when it comes to front of car design.. my Ioniq was awful. The grey plate on the front should have been shiny black or matched the car colour.
Many other manufacturers just can’t envisage the loss of a grille.
There are some great designers out there and as EV’s become mainstream, the world will be our oyster.
I accept that Model 3 is what is. It’s not well built, it’s support is pretty poor, if you’ve got a good one you are considered lucky (I’m one of those) and everyone drools over it. One day it will be outstanding or consigned to history.
Putting everything that is of any concern to one side, my LR is still quicker than my neighbour’s Aston Martin
priceless!
Many other manufacturers just can’t envisage the loss of a grille.
There are some great designers out there and as EV’s become mainstream, the world will be our oyster.
I accept that Model 3 is what is. It’s not well built, it’s support is pretty poor, if you’ve got a good one you are considered lucky (I’m one of those) and everyone drools over it. One day it will be outstanding or consigned to history.
Putting everything that is of any concern to one side, my LR is still quicker than my neighbour’s Aston Martin
priceless!
The major factor for me would be the range and charging. Elon has it down with the national network. Otherwise, you are just buying an electric golf cart with which you can go about at far as the grocery store.
Quality would also be an issue. "I still have nightmares about my first Mustang. Turn signal stalk fell off in my hand on the first left turn. Since then my brain can only see the old adage for FORD (Fix Or Repair Daily)
Quality would also be an issue. "I still have nightmares about my first Mustang. Turn signal stalk fell off in my hand on the first left turn. Since then my brain can only see the old adage for FORD (Fix Or Repair Daily)
I agree. Every review of the ID.3 seems to highlight the poorer features of the infotainment system. That seems to be something that's fairly well sorted on the Mustang Mach E, although I'd want to see the UK version to see what it's really like, and how it handles things like DAB and FM radio.
I get the feeling that VW really rushed the launch of the ID.3, and didn't allow enough time to get the software sorted. This probably highlights a difference between an established car manufacturer developing a new model that relies on a lot of technology and a technology company, like Tesla, venturing into car manufacture. Although Tesla's software is far from being good in parts, it does seem better than some other cars with similar systems. The flip side is that it's pretty clear that Tesla isn't that good at the nuts and bolts of building cars, both from things like the numerous production quality problems and from things like the poor attention to design and manufacture detail that impact on things like noise and sealing.
As mentioned a few times now, the supercharger network isn't something that useful for me, I've never used it at all, in ~14 months of Tesla ownership, and never used any other rapid charge network either with the Tesla or the I3 I owned before. Range for the Mustang Mach E seems at least as good as the Model Y LR, so not an issue.
When it comes to build quality, and least here in the UK, Ford would have to be pretty dire to get down to Tesla build quality standards, in my view. My car feels about the same build quality as a budget hatchback, and doesn't seem close to the quality I'd expect for a £50k plus car. My last Toyota, that cost around £30k brand new, was massively better put together than my Model 3. It was quiet, very reliable, had zero warranty issues and was generally very well put together. The only criticism I'd level at the Toyota is that it was a bit boring. The Tesla isn't boring, but a part of that is because you never know when the software is going to glitch and slam the brakes on, or swerve the car to avoid an imaginary obstacle.
RedUn
Member
Random thought... Golf tdi? Pretty much ticks everybox you've mentioned and at 6k miles a year you'll only need to fill it up about 10 times?
There's quite a few ICE cars that would offer much better value, for sure. I started switching to electric propulsion in 2005, though, and have driven plug-in cars since 2013, with the Model 3 being my second pure EV. I also have an electric river boat, an electric motorcycle and an electric bike, so am pretty much a committed EV person now!
Quality control in manufacture seems to be the main issue with Tesla. Design not so much. The noise is an interesting one. Sound insulation adds a lot of weight and EVs are already relatively heavy. I've noticed that competing EVs tend to be considerably heavier than Teslas. Not sure how the Mustang compares, but quite likely to be heavier than a Model 3/Y. Aerodynamics are another potential source of noise. Efficiency and low wind noise don't necessarily go together. Some manufacturers will sacrifice drag to reduce wind noise. Tesla seem to chase maximum efficiency at all cost. End result. Teslas are very efficient EVs, maybe at the cost of a bit more cabin noise? But that's offset by lack of engine noise and vibration. I don't find either of my Teslas particularly noisy to drive. Actually very relaxing!
A very quick Google suggests the Mustang is 1993 - 2218 kgs depending on spec, so a bit of a porker!
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SpareHeadOne
Member
Yes, I think of the Mustang as a big lazy V8 muscle car - definitely not an SUV. The reviews I've seen suggest that it's a pretty good car, but in my head it devalues the Mustang brand and feels a bit like it's trying too hard to be cool, a bit like a middle-aged accountant suddenly starting to wear leather jeans.
Don't get me wrong, I think you could definitely have a Mustang EV (eMustang, Mustang-E?), but this isn't it.
By design, I was referring to "design for manufacture". As witnessed by Sandy Munro's teardown of the Model 3, the car just isn't really designed to be assembled to a high standard. This is something that conventional manufacturers have got very good at over the years, making "right first time" easier to achieve by taking away as much as possible all the steps that require some sort of external alignment or adjustment during assembly.
Many of the issues that seem to occur time and time again with Model 3s seem to relate to the assembly process being such that there is a lot of room for panel and glass misalignment, for example. Other manufacturers designed a lot of this stuff out years ago, as they learned that it's an area that leads to lots of rework. Much of the noise probably comes from the poor control of things like panel gaps and glass alignment, as has been demonstrated by people coming up with fixes to make the car quieter by sealing some of these gaps up. My car has a great deal of wind noise at anything over about 45mph, it's been back to get this fixed, but there's no more adjustment available in the doors or glass.
Efficiency is a variable feast, dependent very much on the exact conditions. I posted yesterday about just how variable the efficiency is for my car, it's averaging 295 Wh/mile after ~14 months, but two trips last week returned 333 Wh/mile and 443 Wh/mile respectively. The official figure for the car is that it should be averaging about 257 Wh/mile. What we don't yet know is the real world performance of quite a few of the newer EVs coming to the market here this year. We've already seen that there can be big disparities between the official figures and real world figures, and so far Tesla have tended to get closer to their official figures than some other manufacturers (Jaguar and the e-Pace springs to mind). Early findings seem to suggest that VW, on the other hand, are getting significantly closer to the official figures with the ID.3 than some expected. As far as I'm concerned, I'm not that bothered about efficiency, as long as any car has an adequate real world range. Electricity is pretty cheap, and at the end of the day depreciation is going to cost a lot more than fuel, anyway.
That was certainly the view as per the initial Sandy Munro assessment. Interestingly more recently he has been full of praise for the Tesla manufacturing approach ... them taking note (he claims) of many of the issues raised following the Munro teardown and assessments, and including changes to the Model 3 and Y.
I agree, I doubt that many other car manufacturers would make improvements mid-production like this, Tesla seem to be pretty unique when it comes to continuous development. Mind you, I have a feeling this may well come back and bite them, very hard, in the backside before long.
They are having to keep a growing inventory of parts for each model, as they change things, but still need to supply the older design of part as spares for repair or service. Keeping track of which car has which design of every part must be a PITA, and I can see their logistics organisation needing to be very slick to ensure that exactly the right spare parts are both stocked and delivered to the cars that need them.
After some of the comments above, I decided to compare some key features of the Tesla Model Y LR AWD with the Mustang Mach E ER AWD. The two are surprisingly close in most respects. The Mustang is notably less efficient, and needs a bigger battery to get pretty much identical performance, but there really isn't much in it at all. I used data from the EV Database site, both because it's UK-centric and because it includes a real-world range estimate that seems to be about right to me:
Nice Chart. BTW Range on the Model Y LR AWD is now 326 and acceleration is 0 - 60 in 4.8 sec Apples to Apples.
Design Your Model Y | Tesla
Sounds like you've convinced yourself to by a FORD. You should do it. As they say in Australia. "Good On Ya!"
Ford's stock was at $4.01 in Mar of 2020 and their projected growth from 2021 to 2025 is 3% per year. Volkswagen is still digging itself out of it's Emissions Scandal (Dieselgate). Perhaps these sound like companies you can really believe in and rely on. Good luck with that.
This is a just-released video of Tesla's plans for the future. Lengthy, but well worth the look.
https://youtu.be/W971yXTtCCI
I'm not a Tesla fanboy. I just speak from personal experience. I have owned a Model S, 2 Model Xs, a Model 3 and now have a Model Y (bought from my TESLA stock profits from one week) and outside of a full motor replacement on the Model S (under warranty) and a free new battery for one of the Model Xs (at 17,000 miles - Bad Panasonic), I am a stranger to the Service Center. Service free for over six years except for standard air filter changes for which they come to my office with Mobile Maintenance. I don't know of any other automaker that does that. And the intermittent download ability and response to customer input is priceless. Along with others, I have informed Tesla that the latest updated opening screen leaves the left side too big and the map too small. It is so nice to know that at some point with a future download, it will be corrected.
My Corvette spent one month of the first three in the shop before it was sold back to the dealer. My Mustang fell apart on the way home and needed an engine overall at 31,000 miles. My son's Hyundai was towed 19 times before eventually being turned in under the lemon law. Not to mention Hyundai's crazy mileage lying scandal. My promised Hyundai Elantra mileage, a few years back was 46 and I never got over 27, whereas the Toyota Prius promised 50 and I got 51. Companies with a corporate culture that lies about measurable things do not deserve my business. Buyer beware. Apple teaming with Hyundai sounds like a marriage made in HELL.
Tesla's growing pains have resulted in some significant quality issues, but I am glad to report that my 2021 Model Y was flawless, short of a rear bumper I determined to be a bit off-color which they replaced without question in 1.5 hours. Tesla seeks to improve its quality over time. The Model Y was found to be quieter than a Cadillac. Nevertheless, when ICE accustomed people expressed concern about noise, TESLA went above and beyond. My Model Y, now with double-layer laminate windows is quieter than my Model X and quieter than ANY car I have ridden in.
There wouldn't be hundreds of different types of vehicles if we didn't all have different tastes. Some people abhor the CYBRTRK.
Along with over 650,000 others, I think it will be a fun vehicle to own at a very fair price.
cylonmode
Member
What?? Are you insulating your car with lead? What about the insulation adds weight? Genuinely curious. Ford and VW have been vehicle manufacturers for generations, Tesla not so much. I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt, but manufacturers like Ford and VW need to have their ducks in a row if they want to compete.
Not according to that link it isn't. This is a screenshot from that link, showing the range as 314 miles:
Far from it, I've owned two Fords, a 3.0 litre Capri back in the late 70's and a 2.8 litre Granada in the mid 80's. The Capri well deserved its nick name of "Crapi", although the Granada was a pretty good car in its day.
Like a few other UK Model 3 owners, I've had more than a few issues with the build quality of my car, and it's been a regular visitor to the nearest SC, each time needing me to take a whole day out, as the nearest one was a couple of hour drive away. As already mentioned, I love the design, but the number of little niggles, and not so little niggles, is beginning to really take the edge of owning the car. Combined with the impact of the latest software update, that, for me, has made the speed display all but invisible, and the number of oddball actions, like emergency braking and swerving that the car does for no apparent reason, I'm just getting a bit fed up with it.
Tesla are certainly still riding a wave of success in terms of share price, but I can't help feeling that things may well go pear shaped unless they get a grip on the quality issues that are a regular feature on this forum. I may be wrong, but so far there seems to be little to indicate that things are getting better, at least here. Perhaps when we start to get cars from either Shanghai or Berlin here things may improve, as from what I can gather the Chinese made cars seem to be better built, and I'd expect that the Berlin built ones may be as well.
You are in the UK and it is showing WLTP est, I am in USA and it shows 326 EPA est (I believe @Scott Fairchild is also in USA)
I tried to configure a Mach-e on their order form, max I could choose was 305 EPA est, maybe I am an idiot or their order form is confusing or both?
Good spot! Thanks, The thing that's caught me out was that clicking that link showed me the UK spec, with WLTP range. I guess that Tesla must have detected I was clicking in from the UK and served up the UK specific page.
I've not tried the order form yet, not really made my mind up at all as to what to go for, still just looking at options, really. I've just had a look (can't say I like their website at all) and the numbers do look slightly different to those from the EV Database site:
From their data for the ER AWD version it looks like the WLTP range is 335 miles, rather than 336 miles, and the motor power seems different (almost looks like a typo on the EV Database site, 258 versus 285).
I’m talking about everything from engine insulation through to door panels, bulkheads, dash panels, glass, carpets, rubber seals, roof lining. If you want ultimate sound insulation it can all get pretty heavy. Not saying it’s the end of the world, but some of the premium EVs hitting the market are notably porky and that is just one of the reasons why. It’s not by any means the only reason.
My point was that Tesla appear to focus on the right engineering priorities when it comes to EV efficiency. Low weight and low aerodynamic drag.
rincewind
Member
Can't but agree. However, the thing that is top of my 'don't like' list is the noise level in the Model 3. I'd happily give up a few miles of range for more effective insulation.
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