What are people's thoughts on the Mustang Mach e?

[drtimhill]

I've been idly contemplating changing cars (in part prompted by now being unable to see the speed display on the Model 3) and spotted that the Mustang Mach E will shortly be available here. Seen a few reviews (below) and it looks, on the face of it, to be a fair competitor to the Model Y. I really wanted a hatchback originally, and although the Mustang isn't a true hatchback, it does have a bigger boot opening than the Model 3.

All competition is good, and will push Tesla to improve. You might note, though, that Tesla have addressed the speed display in the newest FSD beta.

 

[pdk42]

I agree. Every review of the ID.3 seems to highlight the poorer features of the infotainment system. That seems to be something that's fairly well sorted on the Mustang Mach E, although I'd want to see the UK version to see what it's really like, and how it handles things like DAB and FM radio.

I get the feeling that VW really rushed the launch of the ID.3, and didn't allow enough time to get the software sorted. This probably highlights a difference between an established car manufacturer developing a new model that relies on a lot of technology and a technology company, like Tesla, venturing into car manufacture. Although Tesla's software is far from being good in parts, it does seem better than some other cars with similar systems. The flip side is that it's pretty clear that Tesla isn't that good at the nuts and bolts of building cars, both from things like the numerous production quality problems and from things like the poor attention to design and manufacture detail that impact on things like noise and sealing.

On this point about design, build etc - looking closely at the ID.3 it's clear that VW really are well ahead of Tesla on this. A few examples:

- The cabin is very quiet. Very little wind noise and low road noise.
- Panel gaps are absolutely spot on.
- Paint is excellent.
- Sealing on doors and windows is excellent - double sealed in most places. Whereas the interiors of the door jambs get filthy on the Tesla (showing that water (and noise) penetrates well into the door/body interface), on the VW it remains clean.
- The glass roof fits using a seal/trim-strip arrangement that guarantees correct positioning.
- The protection in the wheel arches looks much better put together.

The software on the ID.3 is its real achilles heel. It's definitely not yet production quality and I agree it shows that VW were forced to take it to market unfinished. Going ahead with the US launch of the ID.4 with this still outstanding could be a real mistake on VW's part. Having lived in the US, I know how picky the average US consumer can be and just how low their tolerance levels are with product flaws. If our ID.3 is anything to go by, I think the potential for brand damage is high if even half of the problems still exist in the ID.4.

 

[pdk42]

I'm not a Tesla fanboy. I just speak from personal experience. I have owned a Model S, 2 Model Xs, a Model 3 and now have a Model Y (bought from my TESLA stock profits from one week) and outside of a full motor replacement on the Model S (under warranty) and a free new battery for one of the Model Xs (at 17,000 miles - Bad Panasonic), I am a stranger to the Service Center. Service free for over six years except for standard air filter changes for which they come to my office with Mobile Maintenance. I don't know of any other automaker that does that. And the intermittent download ability and response to customer input is priceless. Along with others, I have informed Tesla that the latest updated opening screen leaves the left side too big and the map too small. It is so nice to know that at some point with a future download, it will be corrected.

My Corvette spent one month of the first three in the shop before it was sold back to the dealer. My Mustang fell apart on the way home and needed an engine overall at 31,000 miles. My son's Hyundai was towed 19 times before eventually being turned in under the lemon law. Not to mention Hyundai's crazy mileage lying scandal. My promised Hyundai Elantra mileage, a few years back was 46 and I never got over 27, whereas the Toyota Prius promised 50 and I got 51. Companies with a corporate culture that lies about measurable things do not deserve my business. Buyer beware. Apple teaming with Hyundai sounds like a marriage made in HELL.

Tesla's growing pains have resulted in some significant quality issues, but I am glad to report that my 2021 Model Y was flawless, short of a rear bumper I determined to be a bit off-color which they replaced without question in 1.5 hours. Tesla seeks to improve its quality over time. The Model Y was found to be quieter than a Cadillac. Nevertheless, when ICE accustomed people expressed concern about noise, TESLA went above and beyond. My Model Y, now with double-layer laminate windows is quieter than my Model X and quieter than ANY car I have ridden in.

The trouble is that personal testimonies, although important for the people experiencing them, are not reliable guides for new buyers. I had a Honda that did 120k miles over 5 years and apart from a new exhaust section and regular servicing it was totally reliable - dull as dishwater, but reliable. I also had a BMW with similar mileage that was faultless and needed no visits to the workshop apart from regular servicing which was probably once every 20k miles. I lost money on the servicing deal on that one! I had another BMW that needed a new A/C heat exchanger and compressor, two new steering racks, and a new alternator within its first year.

To get a reasonable view of reliability you need to look at large sample sizes and the organisations that do that regularly find Tesla languishing somewhere near the bottom. It doesn't mean that most cars are lemons of course - in fact, even the worst brands/models show that only a fairly small proportion of cars have problems. My own Model 3 has been 100% reliable and in fact had only a few very small faults at delivery that the SC sorted without issue or delay.

What I would say, and I think even Elon has admitted as much, is that the Model 3's body design is not as good as it ought to be - it's overly complicated leading to higher manufacturing costs, and as @Glan gluaisne said on another post in this thread, leads to cars coming off the line that need rework - often after delivery (poor panel gaps, alignment issues etc).

Finally, on the software update front - it will be interesting to see what happens when Tesla start to have a legacy of models. Right now, all the models in the line up are current (until the new Model S comes along) so pushing out new releases to them all is sort of understandable. But at some point there will be a replacement for the Model 3 and the Y. I wouldn't like to bet that updates will continue to flow. Maybe I'm wrong (and I could well be), but the more the model range branches out the more difficult it will be to keep updates running on all the variants. At some point I can see Tesla making some models end-of-life for updates - just like pretty much all software vendors eventually do.

 

[pdk42]

Can't but agree. However, the thing that is top of my 'don't like' list is the noise level in the Model 3. I'd happily give up a few miles of range for more effective insulation.

I was initially very disappointed in the Model 3's interior refinement. I'd come from a BMW 335i (F31) and despite the engine's smoothness, the car's cabin refinement wasn't where it needed to be either, so finding the Model 3 no better, or maybe even a tad worse, was a surprise. In fact, BMW's F3x variant of the 3-series was a step back from the previous E9x model.

A lot of my Model 3's initial noise issues were due to wind noise and I've managed to fix most of that by tinkering and fitting aftermarket seals etc. It's now pretty good, even up to 80mph. On a smooth piece of tarmac I'm now very happy with it. However, drive on anything but the finest of road coverings (e.g. French autoroutes) and road noise increasingly becomes an issue. The Model 3 really is poor at suppressing road noise. I don't know whether it's down to tyres, or vibration transmitted through the suspension, but either way it's not good. My stock tyres are coming up for replacement and I think I'll put some all-season tyres on and will focus on noise rating as part of the selection process. I'm not expecting miracles, but it may help a little.

 

[phil4]

Finally, on the software update front - it will be interesting to see what happens when Tesla start to have a legacy of models. Right now, all the models in the line up are current (until the new Model S comes along) so pushing out new releases to them all is sort of understandable. But at some point there will be a replacement for the Model 3 and the Y. I wouldn't like to bet that updates will continue to flow. Maybe I'm wrong (and I could well be), but the more the model range branches out the more difficult it will be to keep updates running on all the variants. At some point I can see Tesla making some models end-of-life for updates - just like pretty much all software vendors eventually do.

This is certainly something I'd think is entirely possible. Hopefully it'll be a good while away, and the point they stop tinkering is at least usable and reasonably bug free. At which point those cars will just become like normal cars as now.

 

[Glan gluaisne]

Finally, on the software update front - it will be interesting to see what happens when Tesla start to have a legacy of models. Right now, all the models in the line up are current (until the new Model S comes along) so pushing out new releases to them all is sort of understandable. But at some point there will be a replacement for the Model 3 and the Y. I wouldn't like to bet that updates will continue to flow. Maybe I'm wrong (and I could well be), but the more the model range branches out the more difficult it will be to keep updates running on all the variants. At some point I can see Tesla making some models end-of-life for updates - just like pretty much all software vendors eventually do.

I don't think this is just a software issue, either. There's a very good reason that mainstream car manufacturers stick with the same hardware until such time as they do a product refresh, and that reason has to do with spares and inventory management, and all the costs associated with that. Combined with very little vertical integration, such that spares management becomes a Tier 1/Tier 2 supplier issue, this approach has a beneficial impact on traditional manufacturers. It pretty much forces them to optimise the design of hardware right from the very outset, and not adopt the software development like approach of making something, and then optimising it later, post-release. It also means that they can reduce whole life cost (important for everyone, but especially business customers), by minimising the cost of holding and supplying spares.

Tesla are being praised for their continuous improvement programme for their car's hardware, rightly so from an initial new customer perspective. However, this does create a potential problem, both for Tesla and their customers, further downstream. They will need to continue to manufacture and stock legacy spares for every part they have ever made, unless they can ensure that newer designs of parts are a direct replacement for legacy parts, with no additional labour impact on repair and service organisations. We've seen dozens of hardware changes on the Model 3 alone, in just a couple of years. For how long are Tesla going to be able to continue to supply legacy parts, at the current rate of change, where we're seeing parts change practically every month?

 

[Kenners]

Don’t think Tesla need to worry about the GMs and Fords of this world, even if they have a nice brand in Mustang. But VW will catch them given the €€€€€€ they are spending and benefits they can bring - build and range of models you need to get volume. ID4 v2 will be interesting.

But what I would really worry about if I were Elon is when the Chinese really turn up. They seem to be able to match Tesla on range, efficiency and performance. That is going to be the equivalent of when the Japanese arrived in the US.

 

[Peteski]

Having lived in the US, I know how picky the average US consumer can be and just how low their tolerance levels are with product flaws. If our ID.3 is anything to go by, I think the potential for brand damage is high if even half of the problems still exist in the ID.4.

And yet much of North American consumer product, including many of their cars, are garbage.

 

[aliasell]

I've currently got a 5.0 Mustang and changing to a M3LR. Honestly even if the new EV Mustang was a looker (I don't like the new design, shouldn't have been called a Mustang either) I wouldn't have gone with it. Ford tech is awful - even in a 4 year old Mustang the whole entertainment system is so dated, clunky and slow. Compared with Tesla interfaces, it's just not going to feel the same to it's quality.

 

[Keeper]

Like the Ford but I'm increasingly being drawn to the Jaguar I-Pace. I like the external styling a lot and the interior is definitely winning me over having sampled minimalist. Leather and binnacles (+HUD) appeal now. I read that sales are on the increase too.

 

[Glan gluaisne]

Like the Ford but I'm increasingly being drawn to the Jaguar I-Pace. I like the external styling a lot and the interior is definitely winning me over having sampled minimalist. Leather and binnacles (+HUD) appeal now. I read that sales are on the increase too.

Funny you should write this, as I was looking at the I-Pace this morning. It ticks most of my essential boxes, but I think it is a bit expensive for what it is. I get the feeling that there's a premium of maybe £5k simply because it's a Jaguar, and that seems to be borne out by the relatively high initial depreciation when compared to the Tesla Model 3. This does mean that a year or two old I-Pace looks to be pretty good value right now, though.

 

[pdk42]

But what I would really worry about if I were Elon is when the Chinese really turn up. They seem to be able to match Tesla on range, efficiency and performance. That is going to be the equivalent of when the Japanese arrived in the US.

The big worry of course is that Chinese companies are well known for IP theft. I’d be very surprised if state-sponsored copying of Tesla’s know how isn’t going on wholesale at the Shanghai factory.

 

[browellm]

Funny you should write this, as I was looking at the I-Pace this morning. It ticks most of my essential boxes, but I think it is a bit expensive for what it is. I get the feeling that there's a premium of maybe £5k simply because it's a Jaguar, and that seems to be borne out by the relatively high initial depreciation when compared to the Tesla Model 3. This does mean that a year or two old I-Pace looks to be pretty good value right now, though.

It's good that they're finally releasing the 320 variant in the UK. That will be better pricing at the expense of the traffic light grand prix.

 

[pgkevet]

Funny you should write this, as I was looking at the I-Pace this morning. It ticks most of my essential boxes, but I think it is a bit expensive for what it is. I get the feeling that there's a premium of maybe £5k simply because it's a Jaguar, and that seems to be borne out by the relatively high initial depreciation when compared to the Tesla Model 3. This does mean that a year or two old I-Pace looks to be pretty good value right now, though.

Jag showrooms are quite smart but you have to ask for extra biscuits when you're used to Tesla snacks
Wife fancied the E-pace but I couldn't drive it without my feet getting stuck under the low bulkhead over the pedals. I gotta say the -type has the comfiest seats of nay car I've ever sat in but no way to close the lid and driving with my knees round my neck would be fine if I was female and 50 years younger....

 

[Fairchild]

The trouble is that personal testimonies, although important for the people experiencing them, are not reliable guides for new buyers. I had a Honda that did 120k miles over 5 years and apart from a new exhaust section and regular servicing it was totally reliable - dull as dishwater, but reliable. I also had a BMW with similar mileage that was faultless and needed no visits to the workshop apart from regular servicing which was probably once every 20k miles. I lost money on the servicing deal on that one! I had another BMW that needed a new A/C heat exchanger and compressor, two new steering racks, and a new alternator within its first year.

To get a reasonable view of reliability you need to look at large sample sizes and the organisations that do that regularly find Tesla languishing somewhere near the bottom. It doesn't mean that most cars are lemons of course - in fact, even the worst brands/models show that only a fairly small proportion of cars have problems. My own Model 3 has been 100% reliable and in fact had only a few very small faults at delivery that the SC sorted without issue or delay.

What I would say, and I think even Elon has admitted as much, is that the Model 3's body design is not as good as it ought to be - it's overly complicated leading to higher manufacturing costs, and as @Glan gluaisne said on another post in this thread, leads to cars coming off the line that need rework - often after delivery (poor panel gaps, alignment issues etc).

Finally, on the software update front - it will be interesting to see what happens when Tesla start to have a legacy of models. Right now, all the models in the line up are current (until the new Model S comes along) so pushing out new releases to them all is sort of understandable. But at some point there will be a replacement for the Model 3 and the Y. I wouldn't like to bet that updates will continue to flow. Maybe I'm wrong (and I could well be), but the more the model range branches out the more difficult it will be to keep updates running on all the variants. At some point I can see Tesla making some models end-of-life for updates - just like pretty much all software vendors eventually do.

Hyundai's mileage scandal and VWs Dieselgate are not personal testimonies.