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What are the guidelines for using Autopilot on roads with cross traffic?

Discussion in 'Autopilot & Autonomous/FSD' started by Knightshade, Jan 2, 2020.

  1. Knightshade

    Knightshade Well-Known Member

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    It's almost like the system is explicitly not intended to be used in places there's cross traffic or something, and that doing so anyway can lead to unexpected or dangerous behavior.
     
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  2. Knightshade

    Knightshade Well-Known Member

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    That's user error.

    The current system is explicitly not intended to be used any place there is cross-traffic like that.

    Whenever they roll out nav-in-city with HW3 native code we can discuss how it handles that kind of thing- but until then
    "It behaves poorly in places it's not even supposed to be used" is not a valid criticism of the systems operation.
     
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  3. willow_hiller

    willow_hiller Active Member

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    Is there any guidance on not using TACC where there is cross-traffic? Because TACC acts the same way.
     
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  4. turnem

    turnem Member

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    My man! We can always count on you to chime in with this statement. LOL!!

    You know where I stand on this and I know where you stand on it. But I'm with diezel_dave. The current software version has taken a step back on things as it relates to AP on surface streets. It's REALLY struggling in situations that it used to handle OK.
     
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  5. Knightshade

    Knightshade Well-Known Member

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    "It doesn't work as well as it used to in places it's not intended to work at all" also isn't a useful or valid criticism though.

    Any time it "works right" in those situations is entirely by accident. That is- nothing that makes that situation different from use on a highway happened during the time it "worked right"

    Every time it "works wrong" it's because something that is NOT part of the expected environment it's actually intended to be used in happened.

    That's not the fault of Tesla, it's the fault of the user continuing to not understand how, where, when, and why the system is intended to be used.
     
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  6. Knightshade

    Knightshade Well-Known Member

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    Nearest for TACC alone would be:

    and

     
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  7. diezel_dave

    diezel_dave Member

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    You don't have to be an apologists for Tesla. They will be just fine without people defending every issue with their product. There is nothing that states that TACC is not to be used around town, especially considering it is specifically "traffic aware".
     
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  8. Knightshade

    Knightshade Well-Known Member

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    #8 Knightshade, Jan 2, 2020
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 2, 2020
    And you don't have to be an apologist for people who refuse to read the user manual.

    But here we are.


    Folks were specifically discussing autopilot, which includes autosteer, which does state not to use it in town.

    As to TACC specifically, I cited the relevant bits of the user manual you missed there too including where it mentions it might do this very thing.
     
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  9. HighZ

    HighZ MDNT SLV M3

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    No - in my opinion, TACC (or AP using TACC) sees the obstacle, but can't determine the intention as yet, so it takes the precaution of braking. I agree with the OP that there could be some work done in this area, but I would rather have it start to brake in case the car or obstacle stops than proceed forward with an intuition. It could take into account whether the car turning in front has a clear lane so it would not need to stop, or its speed for that matter. This is where the human brain excels in interpreting all of that data instantly.
     
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  10. diezel_dave

    diezel_dave Member

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    Its a cruddy system then because I have never had another car with dynamic cruise control that ever did something like this. Why do you guys keep defending bad software? You think they will fix it faster if tons of people are all like "nah, works fine for me as long as you use it only under laboratory conditions and are ready for it to try and murder you at any random time" or faster if everyone provides reasonable criticism so they know which things aren't working well in the field?
     
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  11. turnem

    turnem Member

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    I disagree. But continuing to debate it is pointless. So we'll just have to agree to disagree.
     
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  12. HighZ

    HighZ MDNT SLV M3

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    I remember being in a car with a new driver that would slam on the brakes anytime that a car would turn in front, even though it was obvious that the car would not be a factor.

    The 'system' is operating like a new driver with limited brainpower compared to ours to interpret what will happen. It should not be unexpected, and as others have posted, can be managed.
     
  13. diezel_dave

    diezel_dave Member

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    I have to wonder when these guys will give up defending bad software? Once FSD is "officially released" and it still does all sorts of crazy stuff? Probably not even then because they will always find a way to deflect blame from the car and blame the user.
     
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  14. PACEMD

    PACEMD Active Member

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    I disagree that you should agree to disagree. I find that very disagreeable. Do you agree?
     
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  15. diezel_dave

    diezel_dave Member

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    Yes, it doesn't appear to take the crossing car's trajectory in to account. Just sees something in the way, at that moment, and slams the brakes even though that other car has already completely crossed the road by the time my car starts slowing down. Even with your foot over the accelerator and ready to pounce, it's still a jerky experience for passengers because you don't know exactly when the car will hit the brakes then you hit the accelerator leading to a strong braking immediately followed by an acceleration back to traffic speeds. Its a terrible experience and just pointing to the user manual that says "oh, that might happen" is not a good excuse for the system's behavior.
     
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  16. HighZ

    HighZ MDNT SLV M3

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    I totally agree that this needs to be better and we should expect it to handle this better. Based on what I have seen come from Tesla's software engineers, I am confident that this will be improved in some future update. Perhaps they have been sensitive to cars or trucks turning in front.
     
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  17. PACEMD

    PACEMD Active Member

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    #17 PACEMD, Jan 2, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2020
    And maybe it's just me but I find that beta software is nothing to write home about. Dear mom, how are you? I am fine. We are really having some weather here where I am. Have you tried Tesla's new 2019.40.50.7 software? You see the thing is.............
     
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  18. hugh_jassol

    hugh_jassol Member

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    #18 hugh_jassol, Jan 2, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2020
    I don't know why @Knightshade gets jumped on. From the owner's manual:
    it then goes on to say "If you choose to use Autosteer on residential roads, a road without a center divider, or a road where access is not limited...." follow by various things it might not be able to do... many of which people are complaining about above.

    So, I don't get it. Tesla explicitly tells you what it can't do, then people complain that it can't do it, then when someone points out "They told you it couldn't do it" that person gets jumped on for being a "Tesla apologist"?

    EDIT: I should point out that, of course, I still use it on "residential roads, a road without a center divider, or a road where access is not limited" but I'm not shocked/outraged when it doesn't work well.
     
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  19. SoManyM3s

    SoManyM3s Member

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    #19 SoManyM3s, Jan 2, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2020
    I do find it annoying that the car slams the brakes for a turning car as well as cross traffic. At the same time, I entirely recognize that this has to be the case to prevent accidents. Things like this are responsible for those "safer than human." driving statistics. Humans would tend to keep going until something happens and the crossing car or turning car stops, and then you're in an accident. That wouldn't happen with automatic AP braking. On the other hand, I guess you might see a few more rear-ends damaged on the Tesla. Eventually, they'll figure it out. Although, I do disagree with knightshade about car specifically not being designed to handle these situations. Tesla is working to handle all situations. True Full Self Driving. While they might not advertise all the little codes they've adopted, cross traffic awareness and mitigation is probably one thing coded in and there and slowly but surely, they'll improve on it. in fact, it has already improved dramatically as far as not slamming the brakes hard for a car perpendicularly crossing the lane compared to when I first got the car in July.
    What the owner's manual says is to protect them from litigation. The car can obviously do more
    We keep using the car as is and mitigating its faults by anticipating and accelerating through the brakes and slowly neural net will learn and improve.
     
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  20. PACEMD

    PACEMD Active Member

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    #20 PACEMD, Jan 2, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2020
    Ah, you kids today with all your owner's manuals, you think youse so smart, why you kids don't know nutin'..........in my day.......
     
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