What are your most common intervention scenarios?

I've been in the beta program since 10.2 and - while there have certainly been regressions - FSDb has gone from being erratic and scary to quite predictable, almost boring! Zero intervention trips are now common, and even my long daily commute only has a couple of them, usually at predictable locations.

On that note, I thought it might be interesting to start a thread about the most common intervention scenarios still encountered regularly by beta testers. My list is below - if these scenarios were mastered by FSDb, the vast majority of my daily drives would be close to zero interventions.

1. Unprotected Left Turns (ULTs): Specifically, the 'two part' ULT. While FSDb seems much better at gauging traffic distance and velocity, the recently introduced 'two part' driving logic (where it uses the median to wait for an opening on the far side of the intersection) is more trouble than it's worth. In my experience, it attempts this maneuver regardless of whether there is actually sufficient space in the median. This freaks out the cars coming from the right, who assume that I am about to drive right into them as my car approaches the median at high speed.
2. Flashing yellow left turn arrows: These are common in my area. The car should behave as if there were no left arrow, and yield to oncoming traffic but proceed otherwise. Instead, it just waits at the flashing yellow even when there is no oncoming traffic.
3. Right turn on red: FSDb still ignores these signs. This one is surprising, because I remember Karpathy describing the challenge of reading these signs in a presentation quite some time ago. I would have thought FSDb would at least attempt to identify these signs.
4. Toll booths: This is technically the old NoA highway stack and not FSDb. I'm hopeful V11 will be better at toll booths. These are E-ZPass toll booths without arms, so the car just needs to navigate through the toll lanes. It also has to deal with the unmarked open space on the other side of the tool booth (for some reason at one location near me there are no lane markings at all for ~100 feet after the toll booth, so all the vehicles just drive in a pack until the lane markings begin again).
5. (Some) speed bumps: FSDb is fairly good at recognizing speed bumps, but sometimes it misses them completely and I have to disengage so that I don't go airborne.

So that's my 'top 5' list of remaining major issues. Anyone else?

"Tesla Autopilot Engaged in Model X" by Ian Maddox is licensed under CC BY-SA 4.0.
Admin note: Image added as thumbnail for Blog.

 

[Supcom]

3 years ago I was told at a Tesla center point blank that within a few month Teslas will be able to drive kids to schools fully autonomously. Personally, I totally understand two things: 1) there will be no FSD for many years ahead (like 10+) and I have considered paying for the FSD as a donation; 2) Elon and Tesla have intentionally misled people who paid for FSD without full understanding of #1.

People at service centers generally are not privy to what is going on in engineering.

 

[DWtsn]

I encountered a new “WTH is it doing?” the other day. It was early morning and as I went through our small, east Texas town before the sun was up the car in front of me (the only traffic around) slowed and activated their turn signal to turn right into the Walmart parking lot. As my MS slowed it suddenly turned on the left turn signal, merged into the center, “left turn only” lane marked with yellow lines, continued past the turning car, continued traveling through a left turn lane, opposite the correct direction of travel, and then once back in the proper lane of travel stopped appropriately at the red light.

I was glad in one respect that there were no other cars in the roadway at that time of the morning. I was glad there were no local cops to stop me and ask me what the hell I was thinking when I illegally passed that car and then traveled the wrong way in a turn lane. And I was happy the car can “think for itself.”

However, all that being said, I was truly pissed off that the programming would in any way, shape or form allow that to happen!!

Honestly, I’m frustrated and appalled at the lack of available feedback to Tesla. I’m appalled at the sheer number of completely inexplicable phantom breaking events that i experience weekly. I’m disgusted that Tesla felt it was ok to remove the only modicum of feedback I “thought” I had with the “feedback button.”

Tesla has to do a LOT better for this FSD to be viable.

 

[Supcom]

Gee, after six years of owning this software, I thought it already did “basic driving.” And oddly enough I thought the three or four school zones I encounter almost every weekday would be part of basic driving. The fine for ignoring them certainly leads me to believe the government considers them to be a part of basic driving.

Yes, I am paying attention. If I wasn’t I would have lost my driver’s license or life by now while trusting this software.

You must have a much lower threshold for what constitutes basic driving than I.

 

[DWtsn]

Gee, after six years of owning this software, I thought it already did “basic driving.” And oddly enough I thought the three or four school zones I encounter almost every weekday would be part of basic driving. The fine for ignoring them certainly leads me to believe the government considers them to be a part of basic driving.

Yes, I am paying attention. If I wasn’t I would have lost my driver’s license or life by now while trusting this software.

I agree with you, the software cannot be trusted with even the basics. The comment above about simply "adjusting the speed manually" is great IF it responds. I have had on MANY occasions to completely go into manual driving (no TACC or FSD) because while FSD was engaged I rolled the speed selection down and the car simply didn't respond, or responded so slowly that I was quite often 15 to even 30 mph over the posted speed limit. The FSDb seems to NOT want to slowdown and that perplexes me.

 

[pwlorraine]

I had my first drive with FSD beta - 10.44.25.5 - as a new subscriber. Right turn from side street onto 45mph multi lane road - Tesla did not seem to see oncoming grey car so I braked before it could turn - it seemed to have moved beyond creep line. Drive to a destination 7 miles away was otherwise without issues. On the way home, car needed to turn right and then promptly get into a left turn lane with a car already in that lane at the light - otherwise no traffic. Car turned right but hesitated getting into left turn lane - seemed confused and moved alongside the car already there - I took over to make the turn. Car drove rest of the way home including a left hand turn across multi lane reasonably heavy traffic without issue. So wow great coupled with I need it to do the other two things flawlessly.

I have a month to see whether I continue subscribing or if I cancel and wait a few more months.

 

[KArnold]

People at service centers generally are not privy to what is going on in engineering.

Apparently neither is Elon or anyone else @ Tesla.

 

[archae86]

The OP posed the question as "most common intervention", but I think most people are answering something else--some are giving the behaviors they most dislike, and others listing disengagement reasons.

My most common interventions are what I call "nudges"--ways I influence the behavior, without disengaging, and without an actual safety of journey necessity. It took me a while to learn to nudge, and using these three has made my FSD experience better for me and for the drivers around me.

1. Lane change nudge: here in Albuquerque people think the left-most lane is reserved for people traveling over the speed limit. As I honor the speed limit, I fit better in traffic by using a full pull on the turn signal stalk to advise FSDb I'd like it to move a lane to the right. I also sometimes specify a lane change so an upcoming turn will be easier (FSDb is still not very good at finding its way into the next lane in traffic, as it seldom adjusts speed for that purpose)
2. Speed MAX adjust right scroll wheel: as is well known, FSDb does not start slowing in response to a speed limit change until reaching the limit sign, and slows at a negligently slow rate once it starts. I mitigate this by scrolling down the MAX limit in advance of the actual sign. I also use MAX scrolling to cope with the types of speed bumps it fails to detect. There is one common striping pattern here in Albuquerque which FSDb detects about 95% of the time, but the other bumps it appears not to notice at all.
3. Accelerator nudge: I use this to urge FSDb to "move along now" when it is pausing too long at a "turn right on red after stop" location with traffic behind me. I also use it to get more spritely acceleration when I think that best for fitting into traffic. I don't use this nearly so much as do some prominent posters here, as I consider the acceleration from most stops to be appropriate.

My actual disengagements are much less common than are these nudge interventions--perhaps one per five miles in urban Albuquerque traffic.

 

[Raurele]

My most common in busy city streets is when it doesn’t stop before a crosswalk at a light, when there is no room for it to fully get out of the intersection/crosswalk on the other side.

 

[johnnycnote]

I agree with you, the software cannot be trusted with even the basics. The comment above about simply "adjusting the speed manually" is great IF it responds. I have had on MANY occasions to completely go into manual driving (no TACC or FSD) because while FSD was engaged I rolled the speed selection down and the car simply didn't respond, or responded so slowly that I was quite often 15 to even 30 mph over the posted speed limit. The FSDb seems to NOT want to slowdown and that perplexes me.

Scroll wheel speed adjustment is almost immediate every time I use it. And I use it a lot. Are you fast scrolling to achieve 5 mph increments or slow scrolling for 1 mph increments?

 

[Z_Lynx]

I'm tired of having the car run one particular stop sign. It actually stopped a couple times and proceeded fine, making me think it was finally going to recognize this sign correctly but I've had to brake to keep from running it the last half dozen times (the blue buffer line does not appear in these instances).

Also really tired of having to watch rear traffic and push the car through a gracefully veering right turn onto a secondary road. Used to take this smoothly with no unusual slowing - but now (last couple of months) you would get honked at when your car drops to 9mph in a 45mph zone with your tail hanging in the road you are leaving. Really annoying.

On the plus side, the one blinking yellow left, it stops if needed and proceeds fairly promptly.

 

[lordhelmet]

I created an account to reply to this thread because I found it very informative. And to give my two cents, of course.

I bought a MY in 2021 after not having had a car for about 15 years, so it was quite a change from my 1997 Chevy 2500. My first drive was down the West Coast, Portland to Santa Cruz, and at that time autopilot was a game-changer. It mitigated the cognitive load of driving to the point that I didn't feel that long-drive hangover that I normally get after many hours of freeway driving.

Now, my commute to/from work is about a half an hour, all on surface streets, so I was quite happy when I got the FSD Beta a few months ago. I was really getting sick of having to confirm every green light. My main observation is that FSD has shifted the way I drive from turning a wheel and pressing pedals to knowing exactly when to switch in and out of FSD, i.e., knowing when to intervene before FSD does something stupid.

The exact triggers change with software updates (one is apparently pending as I write this), but this morning:

- A single-lane 35 mph road where shoulders separated by a solid white line pop up before turning into right-turn lanes and then collapsing back into a single lane. Every time the MY sees one it turns on the left turn signal and insists that it has changed lanes despite showing a double yellow line to the left. Two software updates ago it would just stop dead at a particular spot where the median turns into a double-yellow.

- A short while later, endless construction that shifts lanes every few weeks where the GPS and FSD go FUBAR and I take over. Even humans have trouble in that sea of orange cones "traffic pattern changed" signs, etc.

- After that, 45 mph with gentle curves that FSD handles pretty much flawlessly. There is a particular intersection with three sets of lights where two streets intersect on both sides, offset from one another, that took a few software updates to get right. (Read: not slamming on the brakes at the second set of green lights.)

- When the road gets a bit curvy (still 45 mph) FSD doesn't anticipate and ends up braking into the turn and then veering across the center line so I proactively take over.

- Then there is a right turn that causes FSD to rock the wheel back-and-forth a few times and then either change lanes in an intersection or change lanes too late, after the right lane fills up. I think it's because the road shifts right and adds a lane immediate before an intersection where a median starts. There I just jerk the wheel to keep cruise control, but disable FSD.

- Next is a left turn that is almost always against a flashing yellow arrow. FSD gets into the center lane too late, after the cars behind me are already there and then just kind of freaks out at the light. I take over before getting into the center lane.

- Then there is a straight 45 mph that FSD handles perfectly, but when it drops to 35 mph and narrows heading into a downhill turn with no shoulder, FSD tries its hardest to get into a head-on collision; it doesn't slow down when the speed limit changes and doesn't see the turn in time so I take over at the 35 mph sign. The road then bends sharply to the left and winds through a school zone, so I'm still in control until it straightens out and goes back to two lanes, mostly straight, at which point FSD gets me the rest of the way.

- The trip home is basically the same, but involves an extra left turn at an arrow following a weird lane-change that FSD cannot handle. There is also an intersection with a straight/turn arrow; even though the GPS knows we're headed straight, FSD pulls to the right and turns the right signal on and off. It seems like it is triggered by the cars in front covering the straight arrow, which causes the display to show it as a right-turn-only.

In the end, I really like FSD. It handles about 70% of the total drive, during which time I just keep my eyes on the road and listen to a podcast. It's about the closest thing to having someone else drive me to work that isn't someone else literally driving me to work. Generally speaking, I rarely touch the brake and drive with both feet on the floor 70-80% of the time, either with FSD or cruise control. The most common interventions are when FSD starts randomly signalling for phantom lane-changes and for freeway entrances/exits with sharp turns or lane-shifts. The phantom lane-changing is by far the most common and annoying because it basically nullifies FDS when there are other cars on the road, who understandably get confused when I signal for a bend in the road or appear to be signalling to turn into a driveway at 50 mph.

 

[johnnycnote]

Coming to a full stop and then safely creeping forward until insuring that no vehicles are approaching is apparently enough to earn multiple horn honks from every NJ driver behind me. So that's my biggest reason for disengagement

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Disengage for most traffic lights on any degree of downhill slope.
Use accelerator on most starts.
Use accelerator when coming to stop signs.
Use turn signals to signal and change lanes.
Adjust speed limit once every minute on average to adjust speed.
Disengage when entering multiple turn lanes when correct lane not picked.

Miscellaneous other behaviors resulting in disengagement are the rest.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Disengage for most traffic lights on any degree of downhill slope.
Use accelerator on most starts.
Use accelerator when coming to stop signs.
Use turn signals to signal and change lanes.
Adjust speed limit once every minute on average to adjust speed.
Disengage when entering multiple turn lanes when correct lane not picked.

Miscellaneous other behaviors resulting in disengagement are the rest.

For example about a 7-mile segment this morning with about 15 interventions.

About 4-5 for traffic lights to avoid brake use (disengage if it is clear brakes are going to be used, or at the first actual brake use (whereupon I can coast to a stop easily with just regen)).
About 4 for speed adjustments.
About 5 for accelerator override to get the car moving from traffic lights.

And maybe 1-2 misc.

 

[johnnycnote]

For example about a 7-mile segment this morning with about 15 interventions.

About 4-5 for traffic lights to avoid brake use (disengage if it is clear brakes are going to be used, or at the first actual brake use (whereupon I can coast to a stop easily with just regen)).
About 4 for speed adjustments.
About 5 for accelerator override to get the car moving from traffic lights.

And maybe 1-2 misc.

Jeez! You sure you have FSD beta? lol. My experience has been very good and way better than it was only a few months ago

 

[Z_Lynx]

Yesterday I confirmed my routine disengagement was indeed required when passing a car on a back road near my home.

Confirmed when FSD basically threw up its hands and stopped in the road. Embarrassing. Car just sat there while oncoming car slowly approached and made no attempt to move to the right so the other car could easily pass. Planned obsolescence?

p.s. discovered if I drop the speed from 25mph to 15mph, odds increase the car will NOT run a nearby stop sign. Right now it seems there is a whole list of interventions required. Give it a little slack and you discover new interventions needed.

 

[dckiwi]

Not really an intervention scenario - but FSDb seems completely unaware when the current lane is ending. I have never seen it actually signal to change lanes in this situation. Instead, as the lane ends it will just drift into the next lane.

Meanwhile it signals every time the road curves

 

[electric-donut]

Wife gets upset if I enable FSDb while she is in the car. It is not a good experience for passengers. A passenger needs to trust the driver, and there is no way a passenger can enjoy the experience if the driver has to intervene due to FSDb behavior due to the resulting erratic ride experience. I don't use it any longer when if I am not alone.

Regarding priorities, I think FSDb developers should concentrate on following traffic laws, before they try to embrace the nuances of driving. School zones, road construction, restricted travel lanes (turn only lanes), crossing solid lines, temporary or time of day speed limits (encountered in construction zones), Bike path encroachment, creeps into crosswalk for better vantage point when making turns even though there are dogs/walkers entering the cross walk ( assume this is an outgrowth from addressing the unprotected left turns, though it does it on right turns as well).

I rate FSDb as equivalent to a new driver with about 10 hours of driving under their belt. That's a long way from being able to deploy as a robo-taxi.

And lets not forget that frequently as it starts to rain, a message displays saying visibility is diminished and FSD is impacted. That is inspiring.

 

[FOOLSLFDRVNG]

Lane hogging on a wide one lane stop sign or red light where 1 car is suppose to hug the left going straight or turning left while making room for another car behind to turn right. First one went too much right making a left turn at a stop sign even while signaling a truck with douche bag stickers slipped in and turned left in front of me. Second one also at a stop sign hugged the middle preventing the car behind from turning right for a second he spewed out in anger. 2 angry drivers today, guess it’s Friday and everyone wants to go home to beat their spouse. ‍♀

 

[WheelsUp]

—when a two-way street turns one way due to parked cars on both sides, FSD cannot negotiate passage with an oncoming car (frankly, it’s hard to imagine how AI could ever do this in a very long time)
—needing to nudge (which I consider an intervention) with accelerator to move through creeps, make unprotected left turns, etc. lots of this. with city driving, you need to move along promptly before the honks start
—genuine fear (and thus intervention) when traversing curved roads. Goes way too fast most of the time (and embarrassing turn signal on curved roads is a nice touch!)
—at traffic light. Current lane will soon turn into a line of parked cars. FSD wants to ram directly into the parked cars, I obviously intervene so have no idea what would happen but no clear intent to avoid
—car in front of me stops so passenger can get out or park creating need to pass (common city situation) FSD way too hesitant to take opportunities to pass, so I intervene.