What are your most common intervention scenarios?

I've been in the beta program since 10.2 and - while there have certainly been regressions - FSDb has gone from being erratic and scary to quite predictable, almost boring! Zero intervention trips are now common, and even my long daily commute only has a couple of them, usually at predictable locations.

On that note, I thought it might be interesting to start a thread about the most common intervention scenarios still encountered regularly by beta testers. My list is below - if these scenarios were mastered by FSDb, the vast majority of my daily drives would be close to zero interventions.

1. Unprotected Left Turns (ULTs): Specifically, the 'two part' ULT. While FSDb seems much better at gauging traffic distance and velocity, the recently introduced 'two part' driving logic (where it uses the median to wait for an opening on the far side of the intersection) is more trouble than it's worth. In my experience, it attempts this maneuver regardless of whether there is actually sufficient space in the median. This freaks out the cars coming from the right, who assume that I am about to drive right into them as my car approaches the median at high speed.
2. Flashing yellow left turn arrows: These are common in my area. The car should behave as if there were no left arrow, and yield to oncoming traffic but proceed otherwise. Instead, it just waits at the flashing yellow even when there is no oncoming traffic.
3. Right turn on red: FSDb still ignores these signs. This one is surprising, because I remember Karpathy describing the challenge of reading these signs in a presentation quite some time ago. I would have thought FSDb would at least attempt to identify these signs.
4. Toll booths: This is technically the old NoA highway stack and not FSDb. I'm hopeful V11 will be better at toll booths. These are E-ZPass toll booths without arms, so the car just needs to navigate through the toll lanes. It also has to deal with the unmarked open space on the other side of the tool booth (for some reason at one location near me there are no lane markings at all for ~100 feet after the toll booth, so all the vehicles just drive in a pack until the lane markings begin again).
5. (Some) speed bumps: FSDb is fairly good at recognizing speed bumps, but sometimes it misses them completely and I have to disengage so that I don't go airborne.

So that's my 'top 5' list of remaining major issues. Anyone else?

"Tesla Autopilot Engaged in Model X" by Ian Maddox is licensed under CC BY-SA 4.0.
Admin note: Image added as thumbnail for Blog.

 

[halfpress]

As others have said, FSDb is something one does when alone in the car. My wife would be positively apoplectic as a passenger. She has always refused to use even basic autopilot when she drives… so, yeah, she is NOT a fan. Heck, mild phantom braking on basic autopilot has always made her curse at both the car and me.

I’ve been exploring FSD for the last week or so, going into it knowing FULL WELL it’s nowhere close to ready and will require constant attention. My assumptions have been entirely correct (I‘ve been reading commentary and watching videos for a year prior to joining FSD), so I’m truly approaching this as technical person with a sincere interest to experience the work in progress and try to contribute.

My biggest interventions certainly relate to roundabouts, ULTs and even a lot of simpler left turns that involve just waiting in a median before crossing two lanes.

I’m shocked how fast it will roll into the median for a left turn and seem like it’s going to just go for it despite oncoming traffic. I’ve flat not had the guts to see if I’m misreading its intent… just not worth it. Also, it will frequently enter the median sitting in what is essentially the oncoming lane for those crossing from the opposite side. It doesn’t seem to ever move to the far right side of the median, but rather rolls right into or diagonally across the left lane of the median, followed by usually seeming like it’s going to just jump out into 60 MPH oncoming traffic.

We have the oldest roundabout in the state of Virginia in our little town. I think it has semi-successfully navigated it once in a wobbly manner. The rest of the time it jams on brakes, lurches, and otherwise freaks out anyone in the vicinity.

ULTs with a median (two lanes either side) are a major mixed bag. I have a few around here I’ve tried over and over with various levels of traffic. With no real traffic around it’s… ok… but does seem to commit all the way across through the median and just barrels across, then wobbles around like a drunk in the left lane as it completes the turn on the far side. A cop would pull me over for erratic driving.

One routine intervention is the simple left or right turn from a side street onto our small, two lane Main St. It seems a textbook simple turn: slow speed limits, good visibility. It approaches fine, creeps, seems to start to commit and then will often push half the car into the lane and then sort of stop or panic. Makes me look like a complete idiot. I had to back out of someone’s way today... a car that was way down the road when it started into the lane and then froze.

And, as others have described, it’s super slow to honor speed changes. Our little town has a 45 MPH to 25 MPH speed drop and I’ve learned to dial it down to 25 LONG before I reach that point and, even then, it’s over 30 as I pass the sign. The cops here have a few spots where they sit and collect revenue on this 25 MPH zone and it would blow by all of those at >40 were I not planning ahead. Fun fact: my first ever speeding ticket as a guy in my very early 20s was in this same 25 MPH zone almost 30 years ago.

I’m enjoying this from a purely technical perspective, but you definitely have to be incredibly careful, paranoid and willing look like a total fool in a many situations.

 

[DWtsn]

Scroll wheel speed adjustment is almost immediate every time I use it. And I use it a lot. Are you fast scrolling to achieve 5 mph increments or slow scrolling for 1 mph increments?

I have attempted both, fast scroll and slow scrolling. I'm continuing to try and figure out WHEN/WHERE this damn thing will work appropriately and it keeps failing to slow appropriately to posted speeds. Way back in the day I was a traffic cop and the speed the car is still traveling into a lower speed zone would DEFINITELY warrant a ticket.

 

[johnnycnote]

Wife gets upset if I enable FSDb while she is in the car. It is not a good experience for passengers. A passenger needs to trust the driver, and there is no way a passenger can enjoy the experience if the driver has to intervene due to FSDb behavior due to the resulting erratic ride experience. I don't use it any longer when if I am not alone.

Regarding priorities, I think FSDb developers should concentrate on following traffic laws, before they try to embrace the nuances of driving. School zones, road construction, restricted travel lanes (turn only lanes), crossing solid lines, temporary or time of day speed limits (encountered in construction zones), Bike path encroachment, creeps into crosswalk for better vantage point when making turns even though there are dogs/walkers entering the cross walk ( assume this is an outgrowth from addressing the unprotected left turns, though it does it on right turns as well).

I rate FSDb as equivalent to a new driver with about 10 hours of driving under their belt. That's a long way from being able to deploy as a robo-taxi.

And lets not forget that frequently as it starts to rain, a message displays saying visibility is diminished and FSD is impacted. That is inspiring.

My wife used to get upset with FSD b engaged. Now it's normal. Even with the interventions

 

[Supcom]

I have attempted both, fast scroll and slow scrolling. I'm continuing to try and figure out WHEN/WHERE this damn thing will work appropriately and it keeps failing to slow appropriately to posted speeds. Way back in the day I was a traffic cop and the speed the car is still traveling into a lower speed zone would DEFINITELY warrant a ticket.

Try tapping the brake, then re-engaging when the car slows to the speed you want. Poor slowing is a well known limitation easily mitigated without need for caps and cursing.

 

[archae86]

Try tapping the brake, then re-engaging when the car slows to the speed you want. Poor slowing is a well known limitation easily mitigated without need for caps and cursing.

So far as I can tell, FSDb slows on a programmed deceleration profile, which most of us think is far, far too gradual. Confusingly, it uses the same profile regardless of elevation change, so if you are going uphill it will actually consume propulsion power to avoid having Isaac Newton gravity imposing higher deceleration than the profile.

So the only way to get down to a reasonable speed in time for speed limit changes down is to scroll down early enough for the profile to let you get where you need to be. It does not seem to increase deceleration in response to the size of the needed speed change-it will decelerate at the same rate, I think, if you are currently 15 mph over MAX as if you are 5 mph over max. So the solution is to scroll down early, not, especially, to scroll down by a large amount.

No, I don't think the car's behavior is appropriate--I'm just giving a workaround that often works for me.

 

[starmap]

My main issue with FSD is that it is too cautious at intersections and stop signs. Tesla needs to know how to improve them, or admit they need more sensors (eg 2 front bumper cams for cross traffic and ride height and speed bump).

 

[DWtsn]

Try tapping the brake, then re-engaging when the car slows to the speed you want. Poor slowing is a well known limitation easily mitigated without need for caps and cursing.

Kinda defeats the purpose of FSD (caps intended) if I have to constantly intervene in simple things such as changing speed limits. I live in a rural area and these are a common occurrence and my "most common intervention scenario" (the topic of this thread). Thanks for the advice.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Jeez! You sure you have FSD beta? lol. My experience has been very good and way better than it was only a few months ago

Here is an example.

I will come up with some alternative method for demonstrating the disengagement to prevent braking. In a future video I will not disengage and will simply count disengagements whenever there is unwarranted brake use (probably easier for people to process - presumably people will complain that the car was not going to brake in some of the examples below - I assure you it was, I know; it is quite predictable on downhill grades).

But the rough count in this is correct.

I have another example I will post later on the same route. Got about 10 interventions.

 

[Dewg]

Here is an example.

I will come up with some alternative method for demonstrating the disengagement to prevent braking. In a future video I will not disengage and will simply count disengagements whenever there is unwarranted brake use (probably easier for people to process - presumably people will complain that the car was not going to brake in some of the examples below - I assure you it was, I know; it is quite predictable on downhill grades).

But the rough count in this is correct.

I have another example I will post later on the same route. Got about 10 interventions.

You need to increase the view distance of the forward camera on your car - I recommend 1500 feet for the comfort level you require.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

You need to increase the view distance of the forward camera on your car

The range of the forward camera is more than sufficient as is.

All that is required is to not use the brakes except in situations where a light unavoidably changes with bad timing (this happens to everyone of course).

 

[Dewg]

The range of the forward camera is more than sufficient as is.

All that is required is to not use the brakes except in situations where a light unavoidably changes with bad timing (this happens to everyone of course).

You're incorrect on the range being sufficient for your comfort level.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

You're incorrect on the range being sufficient for your comfort level.

What do you think is the current range? What range is required for highway driving at 85mph?

Please provide the derivation of your 1500-foot metric (over a quarter mile).

On a flat surface, how long (distance/time) does a Model 3 AWD take to stop with regen (unlimited) only, from 50mph?

Above a certain speed (not 50mph), braking will become necessary in some circumstances - but notably these situations move progressively into situations where there is usually not traffic light control.

 

[Dewg]

What do you think is the current range? What range is required for highway driving at 85mph?

Please provide the derivation of your 1500-foot metric (over a quarter mile).

On a flat surface, how long (distance/time) does a Model 3 AWD take to stop with regen only, from 50mph?

It doesn't matter what numbers I provide for the current hardware - they are insufficient for your comfort level. There's nothing wrong with that, no need to feel embarrassed or defensive about it - it's just not your comfort level and that's totally fine.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

There's nothing wrong with that

Yes there is. The claim is wrong. The numbers matter (and are knowable) because they allow you to derive requirements.

One thing you are missing in the video: note in a few cases I disengaged immediately as the brake use (sometimes just regen and not friction initially) began - and I still managed to stop with regen only with no difficulty at all. This proves that perception range is adequate. (Whether there are other issues with the perception is another matter…)

This is a good test and in future I will consistently disengage as soon as I detect any slowing and see what % of the time I can stop without friction brakes (and in cases where the initial slowing did not engage the friction brakes at all, that proves the case, and in cases where initial slowing did use a little brakes, we would need to see sufficient margin to be confident in that conclusion).

***The issue right now is that the slowing pulses on and off. Lots of wasted regen power.***

 

[Daniel in SD]

What do you think is the current range? What range is required for highway driving at 85mph?

Please provide the derivation of your 1500-foot metric (over a quarter mile).

On a flat surface, how long (distance/time) does a Model 3 AWD take to stop with regen (unlimited) only, from 50mph?

Above a certain speed (not 50mph), braking will become necessary in some circumstances - but notably these situations move progressively into situations where there is usually not traffic light control.

I think regen is 0.2g which would make it 418 feet.

0.5 * ( 50mph)^2/0.2g in feet - Wolfram|Alpha

Wolfram|Alpha brings expert-level knowledge and capabilities to the broadest possible range of people—spanning all professions and education levels.

www.wolframalpha.com

 

[Daniel in SD]

It doesn't matter what numbers I provide for the current hardware - they are insufficient for your comfort level. There's nothing wrong with that, no need to feel embarrassed or defensive about it - it's just not your comfort level and that's totally fine.

If you look at video from the front camera you can see stopped cars at sufficient distance. You need to use first principles thinking.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

If you look at video from the front camera you can see stopped cars at sufficient distance. You need to use first principles thinking.

I really don’t know why people are so quick to doubt Tesla and their hardware capabilities.

Keep the faith!

(YOUR vehicle’s hardware, however, is woefully insufficient. )

 

[DWtsn]

My wife has had a theory that will either be proven correct or dramatically wrong in the next 24 hours. According to my wife, my car (2021 MSLR) will start acting "quirky" when there is an update due to download.

Well, after today, we will see if that's true because "quirky" wasn't even the half of it. In a 106 mile drive, going down to the City of Tyler and back, I intervened through a multitude of items a multitude of times. I would guess I had 30-40 interventions today. These ranged through everything from turn signal issues, phantom braking problems, inability to auto-lane change, inability to not auto-lane change, etc. Honestly, after today's experience, and having 40,000 miles on this car with FSD since Sep 2021, if it were possible to get my $10,000 refunded I would be the first to raise my hand and if a class-action lawsuit popped-up, I would be the first to sign-up. It was that bad.

The day started out normally with a short drive into town to the post office and from there the 50 mile drive to Tyler, Texas with several stops along the way. The car immediately had issues maintaining speed without randomly slowing in what my wife describes as a "herky-jerky" manner. It wavered in the lane(s) more than usual and then continuously wanted to get out of the rightmost lane. Sometimes telling me I needed to "approve" a lane change, then other times just automatically activating the turn signal. Twice while there were cars approaching in the left lane, causing them to slow down, causing me to cancel the turn signal, causing them (and me) to be very confused.

It got worse from there. The car would want to change lanes to get out of the rightmost lane, then would immediately want back into the right lane to follow the route. This continued to occur all day. Sometimes turning the blinker(s) on automatically and sometimes just indicating that we wanted me to "approve" a lane change. Then on occasion when I would activate the turn signal the car would simply refuse to change lanes. At one point traveling a full mile with the signal on as I watched with morbid curiosity to see if the car would just do what I was commanding it to do!

As the day/drive progressed and we got into "the city" the driving and speed management was terrible. Intermittent slowing for no reason, inability to sustain a commanded speed was common. And this occurred whether on TACC, FSDb and with the FSDb button off that is supposed to detriment to Autopilot-only. This had no effect on the performance.

As the drive back towards our small town continued the inadvertent and awkward "slowing" continued to worsen. At one point I came across an overpass coming into town. The posted speed limit is 70mph and the speed (with FSDb ON) was set to 75mph. This was a two northbound lane highway with a large divider and two southbound lanes, no traffic in front of me, no oncoming traffic, clear conditions, exactly 70 degrees, when for no Godly reason whatsoever the car attempts to come to a full and complete stop in the middle of the roadway! I was so stunned when it suddenly braked hard, eased up on the brakes and smoothly attempted to come to a full stop! My wife and I just stared at each other in disbelief.

As I saw traffic approaching from the rear I immediately accelerated, since I was now below 30mph - IN A 70MPH ZONE!! This was untenable and absolutely an unforgivable detriment in the car and the programming. There was absolutely no reason this should have occurred.

For the remainder of the drive I used the TACC and even that had difficulty with maintaining the commanded speed and not randomly and jerkily slowing for no reason that we could discern.

For the foreseeable future I will have FSDb sitting on the sidelines. As the updates occur it appears to be one step forward and two steps back. But the "steps back" we are experiencing now are making for a frustrating, miserable and even very dangerous driving environment. My wife refuses to drive my car. And, given that her 2022 M3LR (without FSDb) has NONE of these issues, I don't blame her.

Hoping and praying my wife's theory that the worse the drive, the closer the update to come, but I have a feeling that's not the case this time.

 

[DWtsn]

My wife has had a theory that will either be proven correct or dramatically wrong in the next 24 hours. According to my wife, my car (2021 MSLR) will start acting "quirky" when there is an update due to download.

Well, after today, we will see if that's true because "quirky" wasn't even the half of it. In a 106 mile drive, going down to the City of Tyler and back, I intervened through a multitude of items a multitude of times. I would guess I had 30-40 interventions today. These ranged through everything from turn signal issues, phantom braking problems, inability to auto-lane change, inability to not auto-lane change, etc. Honestly, after today's experience, and having 40,000 miles on this car with FSD since Sep 2021, if it were possible to get my $10,000 refunded I would be the first to raise my hand and if a class-action lawsuit popped-up, I would be the first to sign-up. It was that bad.

The day started out normally with a short drive into town to the post office and from there the 50 mile drive to Tyler, Texas with several stops along the way. The car immediately had issues maintaining speed without randomly slowing in what my wife describes as a "herky-jerky" manner. It wavered in the lane(s) more than usual and then continuously wanted to get out of the rightmost lane. Sometimes telling me I needed to "approve" a lane change, then other times just automatically activating the turn signal. Twice while there were cars approaching in the left lane, causing them to slow down, causing me to cancel the turn signal, causing them (and me) to be very confused.

It got worse from there. The car would want to change lanes to get out of the rightmost lane, then would immediately want back into the right lane to follow the route. This continued to occur all day. Sometimes turning the blinker(s) on automatically and sometimes just indicating that we wanted me to "approve" a lane change. Then on occasion when I would activate the turn signal the car would simply refuse to change lanes. At one point traveling a full mile with the signal on as I watched with morbid curiosity to see if the car would just do what I was commanding it to do!

As the day/drive progressed and we got into "the city" the driving and speed management was terrible. Intermittent slowing for no reason, inability to sustain a commanded speed was common. And this occurred whether on TACC, FSDb and with the FSDb button off that is supposed to detriment to Autopilot-only. This had no effect on the performance.

As the drive back towards our small town continued the inadvertent and awkward "slowing" continued to worsen. At one point I came across an overpass coming into town. The posted speed limit is 70mph and the speed (with FSDb ON) was set to 75mph. This was a two northbound lane highway with a large divider and two southbound lanes, no traffic in front of me, no oncoming traffic, clear conditions, exactly 70 degrees, when for no Godly reason whatsoever the car attempts to come to a full and complete stop in the middle of the roadway! I was so stunned when it suddenly braked hard, eased up on the brakes and smoothly attempted to come to a full stop! My wife and I just stared at each other in disbelief.

As I saw traffic approaching from the rear I immediately accelerated, since I was now below 30mph - IN A 70MPH ZONE!! This was untenable and absolutely an unforgivable detriment in the car and the programming. There was absolutely no reason this should have occurred.

For the remainder of the drive I used the TACC and even that had difficulty with maintaining the commanded speed and not randomly and jerkily slowing for no reason that we could discern.

For the foreseeable future I will have FSDb sitting on the sidelines. As the updates occur it appears to be one step forward and two steps back. But the "steps back" we are experiencing now are making for a frustrating, miserable and even very dangerous driving environment. My wife refuses to drive my car. And, given that her 2022 M3LR (without FSDb) has NONE of these issues, I don't blame her.

Hoping and praying my wife's theory that the worse the drive, the closer the update to come, but I have a feeling that's not the case this time.

UPDATE: I’m gonna have to swallow my pride and tell my wife that (ONCE AGAIN) she was right!!
So far in 10 years of marriage, I seem to have to say that a lot more than she does!! Dang it!!
But maybe this’ll fix my car's gremlins. Rooting for 2022.44.30.5 (fingers crossed)

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Just following up here with a video where I did not disengage, but count places where I would have disengaged.

Several interventions, and would have been about four disengagements in five minutes. Total of 8 interventions. The interventions were for speed, while the disengagements were for comfort/correcting braking behavior.

This is not a cherry-picked drive - it is the first one I captured and is fairly typical. The number of disengagements really just depends on the number of red lights encountered! (I disengage on every one, basically. For obvious reasons!)

Fortunately, that should be easy stuff to fix, and is likely an intentional implementation. Have not seen a single reasonable length uncut YouTube video which does not show exactly the same behavior, so nothing special about my vehicle here.

Be sure to zoom in on that screen. Really some epic slowdowns on this video - I can’t emphasize enough how exciting and amusing it is to watch. Pure entertainment.