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What charge port connector?

Discussion in 'Model S: Battery & Charging' started by slcasner, Jun 3, 2011.

  1. slcasner

    slcasner Member

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    An update on the Model S charge connector based on a short conversation with Elon at the end of the first annual shareholders' meeting yesterday morning.

    I asked Elon if the Model S would have a J1772 connector. He said it would not because J1772 can't handle high enough power. I agreed that it would not handle the high-power DC charging, but it would handle 70A level 2+, and that I assumed the DC charging would be a separate connector. Elon replied that the Model S would have one connector for both modes. I guess this means yet another proprietary connector. Sigh...
     
  2. doug

    doug Administrator / Head Moderator

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    Help me Jeebus...

    I don't suppose you thought to ask about support for 3 phase. This was imagined to be promised to a certain someone by a certain Tesla CTO during a dream, European Tesla store opening, and/or spirit walk.

    Well if not J1772, one can only hope it would be this.
     
  3. dpeilow

    dpeilow Moderator

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    Without taking this off down the line of another thread...

    J1772's proposed DC Level 3 / AC Level 2 connector surely fits the bill. What words did Elon use exactly, because using this wouldn't contradict the last sentence.
     
  4. Eberhard

    Eberhard #421 Model S #S32

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    The only connector who can handle both is the Mennekes?
     
  5. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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    I don't understand why they can't just say at this point what the connector will be. It has to be finalized by this point. Not having a J1772 charger on there is a mistake I think. Especially in the eyes of the general public.
     
  6. emq

    emq Member

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    #6 emq, Jun 3, 2011
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2011
    Mennekes can handle both.

    The Mennekes Combo plug isnt provided for HighLevel DC Charge, 63A AC, 70A DC. The S is 45 Minutes QuickCharge. If i asume the S has 75kWh Accus, that means 100kW power for 45minutes chargetime. At 3x400V thats 144Amps AC.

    70A DC x 375V = 26kW > 3h Charge time.

    The only connecter now, can handle 45 min. charge is CHADEMO Standard (supported by about 300 companys worldwide, based on TEPCO Tokyo) on DC 50kW, 100kW, 200kW.

    BYD has a propietary solution.

    Teslamotors may be has not dicided or communicated there solution.

    The good info for quick charge: The primary connection to the grid will be fix installation, can be different according the local grid archtecture, for instance 3ph in EU, 1ph in US, J, Italy ec.
    The Output is alwas the same, according the car interface.

    emq: Power Quality / EV charging solutions
     
  7. Eberhard

    Eberhard #421 Model S #S32

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    Mennekes can handle 3x63A = 44kW output or 1x70A AC or 2x 70A 500V DC = 70kW output means 80% of 80kW = 64kWH in 55min. Both is fine for me, but i don't need/want DC
     
  8. Doug_G

    Doug_G Lead Moderator

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    Aw crap. Apparently Tesla sees plugs as their main profit center.
     
  9. richkae

    richkae VIN587

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    Possibilities for not announcing:
    1) They have not finalized their decision/design.
    2) They think they have something better than everyone else and they don't want to be copied.
    3) They think they have something better than everyone else but believe it will face criticism until they can demonstrate it and prove that.

    Technical possiblities:
    1) Much higher power than anyone is currently thinking about. What if they are thinking about 100kW? or 150kW? Maybe they believe they can convince the world that 60-70kW isn't sufficient and the Model S will be ready to handle much more power whenever those are available?
    If you buy a fleet of Model S cars, a couple of 100kW-150kW chargers may be a small piece of the pie.
     
  10. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    #10 TEG, Jun 3, 2011
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2011
    Lets hope you are right that the reason is that they have something better. But keeping it proprietary would be a shame as a shared charging infrastructure can help more broad acceptance of EVs. One thing going for gas stations is you know the nozzle will fit your gas car no matter which station you happen to use. As it is now with EV charging, we have small paddle, Avcon, J1772, Tesla connectors, CHAdeMO, and such spread around. I have already seen some Leaf's pull up to the local Fry's electronics having found a charge spot on their map only to realize there are small paddle and Avcon there and no J1772. I have seen Teslas parked in small paddle spots that are marked "EV only" thus denying a Rav4EV a chance to charge. I really think we need to get standardized on one plug for everyone. If Tesla were to offer charging stations with > 20kW what socket would they use? CHAdeMO? New SAE? IEC 3phase? And to add to the above we have different vendors trying to introduce RFID card controls on their EVSEs, so there doesn't appear to be a standard there either. I will need to have a Chargpoint account and RFID card, as well as a Blink account/card, and who knows what else in future to be able to use the different charging locations.
    http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20110601/OEM01/110609983/1179
    Is that a suggestion that they plan to have company operated charging locations? Would they allow non Tesla cars to charge there too? Hopefully charging infrastructure is viewed as an industry wide effort, not something proprietary to each company.
     
  11. emq

    emq Member

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    Sorry to correct you: 2x70A DC means 70A x 500V DC = 35kW The S might have max 400V x 70A =28kW 80kWh/28kW ca. 3h

    emq
     
  12. richkae

    richkae VIN587

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    Like I said before in another thread, there will have to be a J1772 adapter on top of any proprietary connector on the car.
    If they make that adapter 1) lock to the car, 2) capable of being left attached to the car with the charge door closed so it is just like a native J1772 connector - then I dont care.
    The Roadster dangly 3 foot wire thing is a horrible disaster of a solution.
     
  13. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    That is fine for Tesla vehicles (e.g. Model S) that want to do opportunistic charging at non-Tesla "public" infrastructure, but what about non-Tesla cars that want to use Tesla EVSEs? Will we have another Tesla proprietary connector on some new charge stations? We have already seen how that can work with public HPCs that are only for Roadsters.
     
  14. Eberhard

    Eberhard #421 Model S #S32

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    no 2x70A X 500V DC = 70kW on mennekes instead AC 3-phase + Neutral (4 lines), DC with 2 lines plus(+) and 2 lines minus(-).
     
  15. richkae

    richkae VIN587

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    There is no reason why a fast DC charge station cant have multiple cords hanging off it.
    It could have a CHAdeMO cord, a J1772+DC cord, a Mennekes cord and some other cord.
    You swipe your card and you enter what type of car you have ( or it knows from your card ) or which cord you want - and the machine unlocks the appropriate cord.
    If the box is $25000, each additional cord and plug option is probably only $500
     
  16. qwk

    qwk Model S P2681

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    Yikes, I guess it's good that the model S will have a front trunk, because it will need it for all of the adapters. This decision definately isn't helping with the negative EV perception by average people. Looks like more ammo for big oil. sigh...
     
  17. GSP

    GSP Member

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    I cannot believe Tesla will not include a J1772 connector on the Model S. They are too smart to make such a huge blunder. I certainly will require a J1772 connector for any future car purchase.

    I expect that this report is just a mis-understanding, and the Model S will indeed have a J1772 connector. Tesla is likely keeping the connector secret to enable a last minute decision about CHAdeMO vs. J1772DC for the fast charge connector. Will J1772DC be ready in time? Which one will be the de-facto standard for fast chargers in the US?

    Also, how will Tesla support 3-phase? Probably by using the Mennekes connector on European cars, but maybe Tesla has different solution that they don't want to announce yet.

    GSP
     
  18. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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    Stupid
    Stupid.
    Stupid!
     
  19. Eberhard

    Eberhard #421 Model S #S32

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    instead of a single one-phase charger with 90A they can do 3 single phase charger at 32A then it does not matter how it is configured. The efficiency is even higher at lower rates, when only one charger will be used.
     
  20. qwk

    qwk Model S P2681

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    I wouldn't count chickens until they hatch. There may NOT even be 3-phase support.
     

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